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Author Topic:   The Awesome Republican Primary Thread
frako
Member (Idle past 324 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 1216 of 1485 (711358)
11-17-2013 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1215 by yenmor
11-17-2013 3:15 PM


Re: statists ???????????????
As someone pointed this out before. There is nothing new with the aca. All of it were Republican ideas. Obama just xerox those ideas and fed them back to Republicans. And all of a sudden people like Romney went against their own proposals.
Well that's because Obama is a black Muslim Kenyan devil worshipper who was sent on this earth to end america and start the end times. If he supports something it has to be evil.
Its how politics work basically you have to be the enemy of the other party so your followers don't get the idea that voting for the other side is anything less then treason. Look america has its republican democrat battlefield and you must choose a side, we have "communists" and "non communists" though neither are anything close they each portray themselves as the light in the darkens and the others as the ultimate evil. Its been some 70 years since the real communists came to power and where brutal to the opposition that actually stood with the Germans during the war so they had a point they just went to fare, and the topic is still coming up in my country. its been 20 years since Slovenians independence and still they are fighting about how one side dint want to secede it was actually a good idea we had enough support in the world to force a different form of government as it was clear that every president would be Serbian in Yugoslavia after Tito because the majority where Serbian. The other side points out that their leaders where hiding during the 11 some day ware where 1 person got injured an enemy killed and some 10 20 thousand enemie combatants where captured. This is still coming up in the elections why to divide the people, because our real problems cant be solved so easily as hating the other guys.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1215 by yenmor, posted 11-17-2013 3:15 PM yenmor has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 1217 of 1485 (711359)
11-17-2013 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1209 by Coyote
11-16-2013 2:56 PM


Re: statists ???????????????
We should take care that such doesn't happen here.
Well thank heaven we've got conservatives around to battle against "central control of everything". And to ensure that sharia doesn't become the law of the land, that's something they've been very successful at. And they've kept Obama from taking all our guns away, and we haven't been herded into FEMA death camps, and none of us have been ... what is it that death panels do again? Well, they haven't done that. And above all we're safe from Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction.
Yes, if you want to be protected from imaginary threats, the conservatives are your guys. One day maybe they'll graduate to solving real problems.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1209 by Coyote, posted 11-16-2013 2:56 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2125 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 1218 of 1485 (711360)
11-17-2013 11:01 PM


On central planning...
ObamaCare, Like All Central Planning, Is A 'Big Failure'
Access to this page has been denied.
Bureaucratic Tragedy: ObamaCare promoter Ezra Klein admits the law has been a "big failure." We could say his comments are those of a useful idiot. But what they really do is underscore the perils of central planning.
Washington Post blogger Klein has been a longtime advocate for ObamaCare. He has predicted great days ahead and wrote in April in a Bloomberg column that ObamaCare will be so successful that Republicans will ultimately embrace a "policy that they did everything to destroy." Klein even saw the GOP trying "to build on it" once it was established.
But he wasn't so upbeat on Monday. On MSNBC's "Morning Joe," he acknowledged that ObamaCare was having great trouble with its rollout. He noted that it's now "a couple of weeks in and people can't sign up," even though some "have tried 20, 30, 40 times."
"One of the Obama administration's jobs, separate from all of the political stuff we talk about here, is to simply run things like this well, to run their signature legislative initiative well," said Klein.
"On that, so far, this has been a big failure."
Did he expect something else? Was he anticipating some kind of grand opening, a glorious balloon-release of reform that transitioned into a smooth sailing for all?
To do so would have been naive, because history and common sense, along with a large catalog of economic theory tells us that central planning has not and cannot work.
More

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 1219 of 1485 (711361)
11-17-2013 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1209 by Coyote
11-16-2013 2:56 PM


Re: statists ???????????????
You need a little realism there as well.
In the case of East and West Germany other than just statist conspiracy; maybe Russia striping all the manufacturing equipment as well as most of the agricultural production and continued demand for reparations while West Germany benefited from favored nation treatment, the Marshall plan and financial and industrial subsidy from the US played a part. Yet East Germany still managed to have the highest standard of living of all of the occupied Eastern Bloc nations.
In the case of North Korea do you think a virtual boycott by the US on economic development while again giving favored nation benefits and economic aid and development to, as well as providing markets for, South Korea might have played a part?
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin and wrong word

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1209 by Coyote, posted 11-16-2013 2:56 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1221 by Coyote, posted 11-17-2013 11:26 PM jar has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 1220 of 1485 (711363)
11-17-2013 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1218 by Coyote
11-17-2013 11:01 PM


Re: On central planning...
Yes, it's no coincidence that every great achievement from putting a man on the moon to liberating Europe from the Nazis to the abolition of smallpox was achieved by private entities competing in the free market rather than by central planning. As the man says, with that grasp of history, common sense, economics and grammar so typical of conservative commentators: "history and common sense, along with a large catalog of economic theory tells us that central planning has not and cannot work."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1218 by Coyote, posted 11-17-2013 11:01 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2125 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 1221 of 1485 (711366)
11-17-2013 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1219 by jar
11-17-2013 11:03 PM


Re: statists ???????????????
If you think that's the case, show us the evidence.
Otherwise, it is clear that any social system that takes away individual initiative is doomed to fail. It is human nature that people will not put out their best efforts when they know the vast majority of what they produce will be taken away from them.
Communism and socialism is [sic] seductive. It promises us that people will contribute according to ability and receive according to needs. Everybody is equal. Everybody has a right to decent housing, decent food and affordable medical care. History should have taught us that when we hear people talk this stuff -- watch out!
Walter E. Williams

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1219 by jar, posted 11-17-2013 11:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1222 by nwr, posted 11-18-2013 12:44 AM Coyote has not replied
 Message 1223 by Jon, posted 11-18-2013 8:35 AM Coyote has not replied
 Message 1224 by Theodoric, posted 11-18-2013 8:48 AM Coyote has not replied
 Message 1225 by jar, posted 11-18-2013 9:22 AM Coyote has not replied
 Message 1226 by ringo, posted 11-18-2013 12:06 PM Coyote has not replied
 Message 1227 by Diomedes, posted 11-18-2013 3:43 PM Coyote has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 1222 of 1485 (711370)
11-18-2013 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1221 by Coyote
11-17-2013 11:26 PM


Re: statists ???????????????
Otherwise, it is clear that any social system that takes away individual initiative is doomed to fail.
You must be referring to a capitalist system that hoards all of the wealth for the richest few.
Yes, that is doomed to fail.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1221 by Coyote, posted 11-17-2013 11:26 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 1223 of 1485 (711385)
11-18-2013 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1221 by Coyote
11-17-2013 11:26 PM


Re: statists ???????????????
It is human nature that people will not put out their best efforts when they know the vast majority of what they produce will be taken away from them.
Evidence?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1221 by Coyote, posted 11-17-2013 11:26 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9133
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 1224 of 1485 (711387)
11-18-2013 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1221 by Coyote
11-17-2013 11:26 PM


Re: statists ???????????????
It is human nature that people will not put out their best efforts when they know the vast majority of what they produce will be taken away from them.
How does anything Obama or the ACA do, do this?
You are familiar with what top marginal tax rates were during the economic booms of the 50's, 60's and 70's don't you? If you actually looked at "taken away" you will see that the top percentiles are paying a miniscule in taxes compared to what they used to and the bottom 2/3's are paying appreciable more. Don't cherry pick your taxes now. Look at total tax burden.
How low do we have to go with taxes on corps and the wealthy, before this miraculous economic nirvana you conservatives claim will happen, finally kicks in? You and your ilk really need to study economics and history.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1221 by Coyote, posted 11-17-2013 11:26 PM Coyote has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1225 of 1485 (711392)
11-18-2013 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1221 by Coyote
11-17-2013 11:26 PM


Re: statists ???????????????
If I think what?
What does anything I have said relate to your bumper sticker post or provide any evidence of anything?
Classic Gish Gallop!

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1221 by Coyote, posted 11-17-2013 11:26 PM Coyote has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 431 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1226 of 1485 (711408)
11-18-2013 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1221 by Coyote
11-17-2013 11:26 PM


Re: statists ???????????????
Coyote writes:
Otherwise, it is clear that any social system that takes away individual initiative is doomed to fail.
A social system without healthy citizens/workers is doomed to fail.
Publicly funded healthcare is no different from publicly funded roads. Both are necessary for a modern society, not necessacrily a "statist" one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1221 by Coyote, posted 11-17-2013 11:26 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 1227 of 1485 (711422)
11-18-2013 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1221 by Coyote
11-17-2013 11:26 PM


Re: statists ???????????????
Otherwise, it is clear that any social system that takes away individual initiative is doomed to fail
I believe there is veracity to that statement. However, the removal of individual initiative can occur in both capitalist and socialist models.
Consider for example the amount of money that pours in from special interests such as big oil, pharma, the coal lobby, and so forth and how their efforts do much to stifle innovation in areas that would be deemed a threat to the bottom line of these institutions. Now that Citizens United was ratified by SCOTUS, we literally have created a situation where money, and who has the most of it, can dictate policy in our country.
So sure, pure communism is destined to fail. But a pure oligarchy will fair no better IMO.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1221 by Coyote, posted 11-17-2013 11:26 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1228 by RAZD, posted 11-18-2013 4:05 PM Diomedes has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1424 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(4)
Message 1228 of 1485 (711423)
11-18-2013 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1227 by Diomedes
11-18-2013 3:43 PM


when anyone equates socialism and communism they don't know them
So sure, pure communism is destined to fail. But a pure oligarchy will fair no better IMO.
Especially as any "communist" countries we've seen are really oligarchies ... and they have indeed failed.
Most companies, especially the large multi-nationals, are also oligarchies.
It is possible to have a democratically responsible capitalism, as we see this in democratic socialist countries with socially responsible capitalism that benefits the population.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1227 by Diomedes, posted 11-18-2013 3:43 PM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2125 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 1229 of 1485 (711427)
11-18-2013 5:26 PM


The Obamacare time bomb
By Marc A. Thiessen, The Washington Post, Monday, November 18, 6:38 AM
There is an Obamacare time bomb set to go off just before the 2014 midterm elections and President Obama’s purported fix for the millions of Americans losing their health insurance doesn’t defuse it. If anything, it could make the blast worse.
In truth, Democrats are damned if Obama’s fix works and damned if it doesn’t.
For three years, at Obama’s direction, insurers and state regulators have been planning to cancel millions of individual market plans and move those people into the Obamacare exchanges at the end of this year. That process cannot be easily reversed six weeks before the transfer was to take place. Insurers did not negotiate prices with doctors and hospitals, or put plans through the state regulatory process. There is no magic wand the president can wave to suddenly reinstate canceled plans.
If Obama’s fix fails, a humanitarian disaster will ensue. Come Jan. 1, millions of Americans could find themselves without the health coverage Obama promised they could keep. Suddenly, the horror stories we are hearing today of people getting cancellation letters will be replaced by horror stories of cancer patients having their treatment disrupted and sick children being cut off from their doctors and hospitals. The outrage Americans are expressing today will pale by comparison to the outrage that will ensue when people who had insurance before Obamacare can’t get medical care they are accustomed to because they lost their plans.
But let’s say, by some miracle, Obama’s plan does work, and many in the individual market now losing their plans get to keep them for a year. That just means they will start getting cancellation letters 90 days before the end of the year. In October 2014. One month before the midterm elections.
...
As Obama and the Democrats are learning, there’s no magic reset button when government screws up one-sixth of the economy. Obamacare isn’t just a health-care disaster for the American people it’s a political disaster for the Democratic Party.
More

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

Replies to this message:
 Message 1230 by yenmor, posted 11-18-2013 6:57 PM Coyote has not replied
 Message 1231 by jar, posted 11-18-2013 7:15 PM Coyote has not replied

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 3674 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 1230 of 1485 (711430)
11-18-2013 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1229 by Coyote
11-18-2013 5:26 PM


Such bullshit written with such sensationalist language. Gotta give it to the writer for having shitted out such garbage from his mouth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1229 by Coyote, posted 11-18-2013 5:26 PM Coyote has not replied

  
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