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Author Topic:   Does God Really Exist???
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 286 of 305 (97537)
04-03-2004 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by CreationMan
04-03-2004 12:03 PM


Good systematic theology + old testament and new testament survey courses would be recomended.
Except for the fact that I just don't care all that much, because it's all made up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by CreationMan, posted 04-03-2004 12:03 PM CreationMan has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 287 of 305 (97582)
04-03-2004 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by CreationMan
04-03-2004 11:58 AM


Re: Words of Christ
I would suggest that you be more careful with what you put into quotation marks. "It is finished" and "It is accomplished" can not both be direct, accurate quotes.
In English, the connotation is somewhat different. I would not say the meanings are exactly the same. I have no idea bout the translation from the Greek.
Whatever the translation it seems impossible to be sure what "it" is. Perhaps there is more that can give a clue.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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neil88
Inactive Member


Message 288 of 305 (97666)
04-04-2004 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by CreationMan
02-17-2004 1:54 PM


Re: Spoiled Brat
Creation man
You are asking : "Does god really exist".
Firstly, which god are we talking about?
Also, please note that in science it is not 100% certain that the BiG bang happened, although evidence points in that direction.
And, life did not begin with the big bang. The origin of life was a separate development. The big bang is thought to have created the universe ( matter etc ), and the universe COULD exist without life.

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neil88
Inactive Member


Message 289 of 305 (97668)
04-04-2004 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by CreationMan
02-17-2004 5:07 PM


Re: The Point
Quote :
"we cannot PROVE that God does exist".
Quote :
"There is far more scientific evidence to weigh in support of there being a God than not."
I don't agree with this second statement, but does your evidence prove there is a god ? No (as per your first quote above ).
So we still have no conclusive proof if god exists or does not exist.
Similarly there is no conclusive proof that UFO's exist or do not exist.
So you believe in a supernatural being as a matter of faith.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by SRO2, posted 04-05-2004 1:19 PM neil88 has not replied
 Message 292 by Zurahn, posted 04-28-2004 6:19 PM neil88 has not replied

SRO2 
Inactive Member


Message 290 of 305 (97882)
04-05-2004 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by neil88
04-04-2004 11:52 AM


Re: The Point
Not only that, but if god does exist, who created him? Isn't the age old argument that someone "must" have created the universe. Well, then it stands reason, if the universe can't just have "always been there"...then neither can god just have "always been there". It can't be one way and not the other, and it can't be both ways.

This message is a reply to:
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Angeldust
Inactive Member


Message 291 of 305 (97922)
04-05-2004 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by NosyNed
04-03-2004 8:06 PM


Re: Words of Christ
I can't wait to move this summer. It means that I will access to the net without a nanny. Won't let me see that page again.....
So if this is off-topic, I'm not trying to stray, I just thought I could provide a greek translation of the word for you.
The greek word used is Teleo (nice english transliteration anyway) it means: "To make an end or accomplishment, to complete anything, not merely to end it, but to bring it to perfection or it's destined goal, to carry it through."
Also in the greek grammer it is in the Perfect, indicative, passive tense. Indicative simply means a statement of fact, passive means that the subject (IT in this case) is receiving the action (IT didn't do anything), the interesting one is that the perfect tense (English doesn't have an exact equivalent for it) in Greek it doesn't simply mean that it happened, but holds the meaning that it happened and has continual reprecussions in the future. "It" is finished but whatever "It" is will resonate into the future.

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Zurahn
Inactive Member


Message 292 of 305 (103482)
04-28-2004 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by neil88
04-04-2004 11:52 AM


Re: The Point
I have some reasoning I'd like to see if anyone can dispute:
The typical answer to 'Who created God?' is 'God has always been and always shall be'. Now, for something to have ALWAYS existed, then it has no beginning. So let's take a miscellaneous event, say the creation of the Universe by God, there would be an infinite amount of time prior to that event, thereby it, and all else, could never come to be as there is no end to infinity--for anything to exist, it MUST have a beginning, perhaps not an end, but at the least a beginning.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by :æ:, posted 04-28-2004 6:32 PM Zurahn has replied
 Message 294 by crashfrog, posted 04-28-2004 6:33 PM Zurahn has not replied

:æ: 
Suspended Member (Idle past 7185 days)
Posts: 423
Joined: 07-23-2003


Message 293 of 305 (103487)
04-28-2004 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Zurahn
04-28-2004 6:19 PM


Re: The Point
Zurahn writes:
Now, for something to have ALWAYS existed, then it has no beginning.
I'm not completely convinced that this is true. "Always" is a measure of time, and more specifically it is the measure of ALL real time values. If time has a beginning, yet something exists for ALL real time values, then it would seem to me that this thing, whatever it is, would also have a beginning with time, and still have always existed.
So let's take a miscellaneous event, say the creation of the Universe by God, there would be an infinite amount of time prior to that event, thereby it, and all else, could never come to be as there is no end to infinity...
I think what you're trying to say here is that in your estimation the Creation event would mark the end to the infinity that existed before it, and that this is in contradicition with the definition of infinity. If I've misrepresented your position, then clarify.
Going off of my current interpretation of your argument, though, it is flawed in a few ways. First, the interval would still be unbounded in the past, and so it would not have any actually finite measure. In other words, if you picked a point on a plane and drew a ray outward from that point, the ray can indeed go on for infinity even though it has one endpoint. The creation event you describe is but one endpoint which does not constrain the infinity to a finite value.
In addition, it's not impossible for infinitely many finite intervals to exist between the endpoints of a larger finite interval if the larger interval is continuous (think: space-time continuum). The easy way to understand this is to understand that between the number 1 and 2, there are infinitely many fractions greater than 1 but less than 2. For example: 1.1, 1.11, 1.111, 1.1111, 1.11111, 1.111111, etc.... 2.
[This message has been edited by ::, 04-28-2004]

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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 294 of 305 (103488)
04-28-2004 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Zurahn
04-28-2004 6:19 PM


there would be an infinite amount of time prior to that event, thereby it, and all else, could never come to be as there is no end to infinity
Not neccessarily true.
For instance, the set of all positive whole numbers is infinite, but only in one direction. It starts at 1 and goes on forever.
Rays are geometric figures that are infinite in one direction, starting from an origin. They're exactly one-half as long as a line passing through the same origin, even though they're both infinite. Whether or not that origin is the end of the line, or the beginning, rather depends on where you stand to look.
It would be possible for the time before the universe to extend infinitely into the past. Another explanation is that time is local to the universe, and therefore, there is no time before the beginning of the universe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Zurahn, posted 04-28-2004 6:19 PM Zurahn has not replied

Zurahn
Inactive Member


Message 295 of 305 (103497)
04-28-2004 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by :æ:
04-28-2004 6:32 PM


Re: The Point
That is what I was trying to get across, and your argument is very in depth and I'm not sure if I picked everything up correctly, it seems to me that your response leads back to the idea that there is a beginning of God.
quote:
If time has a beginning, yet something exists for ALL real time values, then it would seem to me that this thing, whatever it is, would also have a beginning with time, and still have always existed.
For if there is a beginning of time, for it to exist from it's start, then it would still have to be created under some capacity because that would be a beginning, which gives the Universe just the same possibility to come from nothing should such a being as God be able to.
quote:
For instance, the set of all positive whole numbers is infinite, but only in one direction. It starts at 1 and goes on forever.
I understand this and have thought of a ray of light, which is why I said it may not actually have an end, but must have a beginning or it wouldn't reach a point. And for time to only be local to the Universe, how can anything act beyond the bounds of time? That would be a frozen image, would it not? Also consider where memory would begin--would there not have to be a point where you do not remember anything prior? That is a key component why it seems without a beginning nothing would come to pass.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by crashfrog, posted 04-28-2004 6:52 PM Zurahn has replied
 Message 298 by PaulK, posted 04-28-2004 7:01 PM Zurahn has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 296 of 305 (103500)
04-28-2004 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Zurahn
04-28-2004 6:49 PM


And for time to only be local to the Universe, how can anything act beyond the bounds of time? That would be a frozen image, would it not?
Don't think of time as the thing that lets things happen. Think of time as the thing that keeps everything from happening all at once.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Zurahn, posted 04-28-2004 6:49 PM Zurahn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by mike the wiz, posted 04-28-2004 6:56 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 299 by Zurahn, posted 04-28-2004 7:02 PM crashfrog has replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 297 of 305 (103505)
04-28-2004 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by crashfrog
04-28-2004 6:52 PM


Think of time as the thing that keeps everything from happening all at once.
Why would that be needed in a chance universe? What's the point in "time". Time itself indicates that God exists. --> Boy am I on topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by crashfrog, posted 04-28-2004 6:52 PM crashfrog has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 298 of 305 (103509)
04-28-2004 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Zurahn
04-28-2004 6:49 PM


Re: The Point
For if there is a beginning of time, for it to exist from it's start, then it would still have to be created under some capacity because that would be a beginning, which gives the Universe just the same possibility to come from nothing should such a being as God be able to.
That really does make no sense. For time to have a cause then that cause must exist before time. However there can be nothing before the beginning of time - the concept is self-contradictory. It follows then that time cannot have a cause.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Zurahn, posted 04-28-2004 6:49 PM Zurahn has not replied

Zurahn
Inactive Member


Message 299 of 305 (103511)
04-28-2004 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by crashfrog
04-28-2004 6:52 PM


If there's no time except within the Universe, and going by your logic that time keeps everything from happening at once, how then about Heaven and interactions there without time? There would be none as there would be no interval between each others. This would basically send all spirits into purgatory. Also Hell, assuming it would just be pain, would be constant ongoing pain that would basically cancel itself out because it would be perfectly equal as it all happens at once.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by crashfrog, posted 04-28-2004 6:52 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by mike the wiz, posted 04-28-2004 8:55 PM Zurahn has not replied
 Message 301 by crashfrog, posted 04-29-2004 12:20 AM Zurahn has not replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 300 of 305 (103536)
04-28-2004 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by Zurahn
04-28-2004 7:02 PM


"Heaven and earth shall pass, but my words shall never pass".

This message is a reply to:
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