Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,822 Year: 4,079/9,624 Month: 950/974 Week: 277/286 Day: 38/46 Hour: 3/7


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Human Intelligence
Skeptick
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 193 (83137)
02-04-2004 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by NosyNed
02-04-2004 11:10 AM


You seem to think you're awfully smart, Skeptick.
Tell me, do YOU think you're smart?
...How about you answer the question inherent in this thread...
Already did. Are you following the posts here, or did you just join after crash tried to reduce this tread to a debate of who can get in the last word, no matter how silly the word?
..(that is if you think there was a flood).
Um, how did flooding get into this topic? Did someone mention flood zones? Did you accidently post this question to the wrong board?
[This message has been edited by Skeptick, 02-04-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by NosyNed, posted 02-04-2004 11:10 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by NosyNed, posted 02-04-2004 7:17 PM Skeptick has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 47 of 193 (83139)
02-04-2004 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Skeptick
02-04-2004 7:11 PM


Tell me, do YOU think you're smart?
Pretty smart. Not the smartest here mind you, but pretty smart.
Um, how did flooding get into this topic? Did someone mention flood zones? Did you accidently post this question to the wrong board?
Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. You seem to be going on about a number of things. These could take a lot of time to discuss. I'd like some evidence that you, too, are pretty smart and capable of discussing in good faith. The fossil sorting thread is a simpler case than most. Do you care to try to answer it? Do you think it can be answered?
If you can show good debating habits there then, perhaps, it will be fun to discuss other, more lengthy, things.

Common sense isn't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Skeptick, posted 02-04-2004 7:11 PM Skeptick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Skeptick, posted 02-04-2004 10:50 PM NosyNed has replied
 Message 188 by Skeptick, posted 02-17-2004 2:54 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
Skeptick
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 193 (83192)
02-04-2004 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by NosyNed
02-04-2004 7:17 PM


Pretty smart. Not the smartest here mind you, but pretty smart.
Sorry, I hadn't noticed. But when you stated what you thought I think, you made did it in a derogatory way. But yet you think the same of yourself, and that's ok? Then, in virtually that same breath you seem to offer instruction in good debating habits?
The fossil sorting thread is a simpler case than most. Do you care to try to answer it?
That's your second attempt to lure me onto a different playing field, which makes me wonder why. If Andre Agassi is in the process of clobbering Michael Jordan in a tennis match, wouldn't it sound a little suspicious if Michael suddenly challenged Andre to step over to the basketball court? But if Michael happens to be winning, why bother with a basketball? I can only participate in a certain number of topics, and I haven't gotten to yours yet. I was first going for the less elementary topics.
Common sense isn't for everyone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by NosyNed, posted 02-04-2004 7:17 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by NosyNed, posted 02-04-2004 11:49 PM Skeptick has replied

  
Skeptick
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 193 (83204)
02-04-2004 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by crashfrog
02-04-2004 7:05 PM


"God did it" is useless as an explanatory framework, while science provides useful answers and makes accurate, testable predictions.
...TRIES to make accurate, testable predictions. You're chasing your tail on this and not catching it. The issue is that you believe "...in the beginning, the superatom..." which is a natural concept that must have a beginning but which you admitted you can't explain. But I believe "...in the beginning, God..." who is a superior being who resides outside of our time-space dimension. I can't prove that any more than you can prove the origin of the superatom, or if it even existed at all. You won't believe in God, but you believe in black holes and worm holes? Might as well open the flod gates throw Santa Claus into the mix and we can have a free-for-all.
(This would be the reducto ad absurdum that you claim "crumbled" - rather, it is you who seem to have abandoned any attempt to rebut it.)
I rebutted, you are the one who seems to have ignored it. Or, I'll gladly give you the benefit of a doubt and assume you just missed it. Plz go back and review post number 34. A clear rebuttal that you simply let die.
The complexity of the cell is not a rebuttal of evolution, because evolution does not propose full cells springing into being/
Ah, yes, thank you for making my point. It's not the complexity, rather the "Observation of Irreducibly Complex Systems" which has long ago reduced evolutionists to resort to argumentative rhetoric. Sorry for not getting technical.
"Accident" is not the appropriate term to refer to any natural, biological phenomenon, and a demand that one choose between "accident and intent" is to commit the fallacy of false alternatives.
That's another example of what I mean by "out of arguments". I clarified my intent of the term accident, and even stopped using it (as explained in an earlier post) but yet you keep bring it up. You can also find this technique explained in your fallacy book (or maybe not in your edition).
You've accused me of practically every logical fallacy in the book
I guess that explains alot. My book has many more in it; you must still be using the 7th grade edition. But go back and look at the posts and see who first accused whom of logical fallacies. Hint: Check post #30, posted by a certain crashfrog. And now you're whining about the taste of your own medicine? Or because your once powerful trump cards didn't seem to work like they perhaps usually do? Puhleez.
...so there's no shame in your attempt to drop out here
Again, puhleez. Like I tried to point out in a different post, after your desperate attempts to "straw man" your way through the issues, and proudly admitting the use of your "technique" (as you called it) of "reducto ad absurdum", you seem/seemed to gravitate toward reducing the level of the debate to a fourth grade level by simply trying as hard as possible to have the last word, no matter how silly the last word may be. If that's what you call victory, then you have converted this debate from mildly humorous to totally ludicrous. So, I guess I lose because I'm going on vacation and won't be posting for a while. Break out the champagne glasses (you can fill them with ginger ale if you're still under-age). Oh, but not until you actually post your last word.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by crashfrog, posted 02-04-2004 7:05 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by crashfrog, posted 02-05-2004 3:55 AM Skeptick has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 50 of 193 (83205)
02-04-2004 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Skeptick
02-04-2004 10:50 PM


If Andre Agassi is in the process of clobbering Michael Jordan in a tennis match, wouldn't it sound a little suspicious
Is that an admission that the sorting problem is something you can't answer?
I'd suggest that you stay out of the deep (well, sort of) philosophy questions till you work up to them.

Common sense isn't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Skeptick, posted 02-04-2004 10:50 PM Skeptick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Skeptick, posted 02-05-2004 1:16 AM NosyNed has replied

  
Skeptick
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 193 (83209)
02-04-2004 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by :æ:
02-03-2004 3:07 PM


No argument, just commenting that this is an excellent analogy.
Right, but did you notice it didn't apply? Drawing a winning lottery ticket make the generation of a winner inevitable. The analogy does well in explaining how a one ticket was selected from a huge mound of tickets, but fails to explain the inevitability of life from non-life. I was just hoping you were still reading. See post #24.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by :æ:, posted 02-03-2004 3:07 PM :æ: has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by crashfrog, posted 02-05-2004 3:07 AM Skeptick has replied

  
Skeptick
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 193 (83241)
02-05-2004 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Dr Jack
02-04-2004 10:43 AM


The Theory of Evolution covers only the study of biological life after it first emerged
That statement is true only in certain circles, and depends on your own point of view, and is influence by whom you listen to. It's a result of changing horses in mid-stream after finding your horse can't swim. The study of evolution cannot avoid dealing with origins, whether it's the origin of a horse or a frog or an amoeba. How else do you decide where to start your evolutionary studies? Darwinian evolution has long been an accepted explanation for the origin of life by many biologists. The book was indeed titled, the origin of species (not the origin of life, but the broad sector of mammals (as opposed to plants)). Darwin himself started with finches, but found it impossible to delve into his theory without reaching back to some sort of beginning (i.e. "origins"). I don't see how evolutionists can make your claim that you do while keeping a straight face. Take a look at an excerpt from the "foreword" of a recent edition of Darwin's "Origin of Species":
From the foreword of Darwin's Origin of Species:
qsAs we know, there is a great divergence of opinion among
biologists, not only about the causes of evolution, but even about the actual process. This divergence exists because the evidence is
unsatisfactory and does not permit any certain conclusion. It is
therefore right and proper to draw the attention of the non-scientific public to disagreements about evolution[/qs] (I can get you actual edition, etc. if you'd like; don't have it handy at the moment).
I'm really glad that this evolutionist is concerned about our lack of understanding. Our forum topic would be so much shorter if evolutionists would pay attention to their own darwinian textbook. The true experts freely admit that the scientific community cannot come to any agreement of the origin of species. Are we just missing this, or are we ignoring it like we tend to ignore the creator?
Take the Stanley Miller, "origin of life experiment" that they teach
the kids in schools. They teach that basic elements which existed billions of years ago (hydrogen, methane, ammonia, and water vapor) produced or morphed into the "basic building blocks of life" (amino acids) after lightening struck the water. Miller's experiment is supposedly evidence of that. What they don't teach is that Miller's experiment was initially a series of miserable failures, producing only "muck" at the bottom of countless test tubes. He didn't produce his "desired" (yes, desired) result until he significantly "manipulated his apparatus" enough to actually get the results that he did. But, even in Miller's carefully controlled environment, it still required a high degree of intelligence driven precision to produce these basic building blocks of life. Oh, and Miller was only able to produce TWO (2) of the amino acids needed for life (prize question: How many amino acids are necessary for life?). The obvious problem with Miller's experiment is that there were no chemists around billions of years ago to manipulate things.
But the most devastating problem Miller had was that his experiment
did not predominantly produce amino acids. The breakdown of the
experiment's products were 13% COOH, 1.05% glycine, 85% tar, and 0.85% alanine. Obviously, the amino acids had a major problem, since the tar would end their short existence, and the process of natural selection would never have gotten off the ground.
Do you now see why evolution cannot be separated from origins?
Perhaps what you're really trying to say, instead of "evolution", is "natural selection" (the main ingredient of evolution, which includes vast stretches of time). And I fully agree with the idea of natural selection. It's clear that a 250 pound 12 point whitetail deer will most likely deprive the perceived reproduction rights of a scraggly 110 pound spike buck, eventually resulting in a nice herd of available trophy deer. If a favorable mutation occurs, we may wind up with a herd of 300 pound 16 point deer. The likes of this has been observed, and is repeatable as many commercial breeders have demonstrated with various common creatures. But we have never observed a dominant deer, or any deer morph into anything other than a deer. The fossil record offers no trace of evidence, nor can we produce the effect even under controlled lab conditions. Morphing happens primarily in Hollywood-style productions, not in real-life. As to Miller's experiment, your librarian can help you find info on other problems with Miller's experiment, that make it clear that life could not possibly have started when evolutionists say it did. Staunch evolutionists can defend Miller's results only by becoming ludicrously argumentative.
Do you mean what caused the big bang? I have no idea. I have no
idea if it even has a cause.
An effect as huge as the big bang coming into existance without a cause? If you believe that you have enough faith to move mountains. Certainly more faith than is necessary to believe
in a supernatural being who resides outside of our time-space
dimension.
Do you mean where did the first replicator come from? Simple
chemistry, probably acted out in a geothermal vent. Probably. We're
not really sure yet.
I mean, quite simply, where did it all start and what was the cause? In denying the powerful existence of an intelligent being, you seemed content with the idea that there was no cause. Refer back to Miller's experiment (the one that inadvertently provided more
evidence to falsify Darwinian evolution than otherwise).
The Boeing 747 was designed, as you know. I imagine your hoping
that we'll let you generalise from that to life. Trouble is, life has
only the tiniest similarity to a Boeing 747, and we have compelling
evidence showing it needs no designer.
I'm not compelled. The simplest cell is much more complex than a 747. Otherwise, why can't we create even a simple form of life?
(Obligatory sidenote pointing out that evolution does not require
or imply atheism)
Sorry, but you just confused Darwinian evolution with Theistic
evolution. Like you, Darwin also lost his faith, and left God out of
his theory of origins. How can you drive a Chevy while denying
General Motors corp? Darwin simply rebelled against God. The only way he could get his ridiculous theory off the ground was by selling it to anti-semites by placing the "Jew" at the bottom of his scale (labeled "animal" or "non-human") and, what Darwin labeled as the "negro" just barely above the "Jew". Had Darwin not stooped this low, his theory would probably have died from lack of support. Yes, yes, I understand this has been revised over the decades, but according to an article in Time magazine:
In 1927, Osborn, along with other evolutionists, created a diagram of man's evolution. Skulls were displayed in progressive order. #1 in the sequence was the fraudulent Piltdown Man. #4 was a Neanderthal; #6 Cro-Magnon Man. #8 was labeled "Australian" (aborigine). #9? "Negro." #10? "Chinese." #11 (and last)? "Caucasian."
That, and the overall concept of Darwinian evolution was all Adolph Hitler needed to make his point in his infamous book most popular amongst anti-semites. Information like this never ceases to flabbergast me.
There's another thing I don't know. How is that saying 'god did
it' is any more satisfactory than saying 'I don't know'.
Finally, we get to the actual point. The key ingredient is rebellion
against God. You basically stated that you don't believe in God
anymore, and have replaced him with "I dont know". A person of any
age doesn't need to understand the mechanics of a jet engine when
flying to a vacation spot. But to deny the existence of a
manufacturer, then insisting it's ok to say "I don't know" would be
unwise. It's axiomatic that a building was built by a builder. The
building may have been built 300 years before my birth, unobserved by
me, but that the builder built it is irrefutable. It's just as
axiomatic as a geometric line extending in opposite directions to
infinity. It's never been observed, and can't be photographed, but
yet it requires no proof to join the ranks of the axioms. "...in the beginning, God created the heavens..." (God being one who resides in another time-space dimension), isn't nearly as hopeless as "...in the beginning, the superatom created itself).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Dr Jack, posted 02-04-2004 10:43 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Dr Jack, posted 02-05-2004 6:03 AM Skeptick has not replied
 Message 58 by Kapyong, posted 02-05-2004 6:37 AM Skeptick has replied
 Message 79 by Dr Jack, posted 02-09-2004 11:05 AM Skeptick has replied

  
Skeptick
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 193 (83246)
02-05-2004 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by NosyNed
02-04-2004 11:49 PM


Is that an admission that the sorting problem is something you can't answer?
No.
Ok, ok, I admit to stop there would be unfair. Absolutely not an admission, but yes I can easily answer it. But are you asking that I select that topic over another one? Flooding has nothing to do with this topic here; several other topics are more closely related this one. How did you select the flood?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by NosyNed, posted 02-04-2004 11:49 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by NosyNed, posted 02-05-2004 1:28 AM Skeptick has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 54 of 193 (83254)
02-05-2004 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Skeptick
02-05-2004 1:16 AM


see answer in that thread

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Skeptick, posted 02-05-2004 1:16 AM Skeptick has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 55 of 193 (83273)
02-05-2004 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Skeptick
02-04-2004 11:53 PM


The analogy does well in explaining how a one ticket was selected from a huge mound of tickets, but fails to explain the inevitability of life from non-life.
I thought I explained this. Maybe it was in another thread. Ok, here goes again:
Life is a finite state of matter. Given enough time, all finite states of matter will eventually be formed, if things are getting stirred up (that is, there's something randomizing the matter,like, say, heat.) It takes time, but it's guaranteed if you can wait long enough.
Google for such mathematical analogies as "the gambler's paradox" or "the drunken walk" to see how this is so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Skeptick, posted 02-04-2004 11:53 PM Skeptick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Skeptick, posted 02-05-2004 10:10 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 56 of 193 (83279)
02-05-2004 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Skeptick
02-04-2004 11:46 PM


I wasn't going to reply to this, because I don't want the last word - but I don't want to look like I don't respond to points, either. So I'll address this:
I rebutted, you are the one who seems to have ignored it. Or, I'll gladly give you the benefit of a doubt and assume you just missed it. Plz go back and review post number 34. A clear rebuttal that you simply let die.
I looked back and this is what I found:
quote:
No, he doesn't design each and every snowflake by hand, but he did design water (we're speaking now in layman's terms to stay simple) to do what it does when it reaches a certain temperature.
In which you make it clear that you believed that God designed water with the emergent property of forming snowflakes under certain conditions.
So, you answer another of your own questions: why is life inevitable? From both of our perspectives, it's because life is an emergent property of chemistry. Why is it that way? From your perspective, it's because God designed it that way. From mine, I don't know. It's not really a scientific question.
Either way, this is not a "rebuttal that I let die." Your rebuttal was the entire reason we're talking about God now. But it's also a rebuttal of the idea that God had to specially create life 6,000 years ago.
You basically walked into my set-up, in other words. You can't use complexity as an argument for the necessity of special creation because God could have set up life as an emergent property of chemistry, just as he set up snowflakes as an emergent property of water.
Cool. I'm glad we're on the same page, finally.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Skeptick, posted 02-04-2004 11:46 PM Skeptick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Skeptick, posted 02-05-2004 10:22 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 57 of 193 (83293)
02-05-2004 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Skeptick
02-05-2004 1:07 AM


I can't be bothered with answering such long posts.
...just as axiomatic as...
Do you understand what an axiom is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Skeptick, posted 02-05-2004 1:07 AM Skeptick has not replied

  
Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3469 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 58 of 193 (83295)
02-05-2004 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Skeptick
02-05-2004 1:07 AM


Abiogenesis NOT = Evolution
Greeetings all,
Skeptick wrote :
quote:
Darwinian evolution has long been an accepted explanation for the origin of life by many biologists.
Hmmm...
Perhaps you are confusing some terms, or perhaps you haven't quite grasped the point others have made.
Evolution is about how life changed over time once it had got started - it does NOT explain the origin of the first life.
Abiogenesis refers to how life FIRST got started (from non-life.)
These two issues are often confused, debate here may proceed more smoothly with more care in differentiating between these two terms and the concepts they refer to.
quote:
The book was indeed titled, the origin of species (not the origin of life, but the broad sector of mammals (as opposed to plants)).
Indeed - Darwin wrote about the origin of SPECIES - i.e. how species arose from earlier species. He said nothing about how life FIRST got started.
quote:
The true experts freely admit that the scientific community cannot come to any agreement of the origin of species.
That is not correct.
Your quote showed that, in Darwin's time, one and a half centuries ago, when evolution was a new and highly controversial idea, the conclusion was not certain.
Now however, the conclusion is much more certain - in fact, evolution is one of the greatest success stories in scientific history.
Firstly,
you wrongly call a single pioneer - Darwin - writing long, long, ago, at the very start of the debate, "the scientific community". Wrong - he is one man from long ago, he is NOT the "scientific community".
Secondly,
you wrongly imply that the modern scientific community cannot come to ANY agreement on the origin of species. Wrong - there is almost total agreement by the scientific community that evolution DOES explain the origin of species.
Iasion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Skeptick, posted 02-05-2004 1:07 AM Skeptick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Skeptick, posted 02-05-2004 11:06 AM Kapyong has replied

  
Skeptick
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 193 (83335)
02-05-2004 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by crashfrog
02-05-2004 3:07 AM


It takes time, but it's guaranteed if you can wait long enough.
You certainly sound like an authority on this. And what would you say are the odds of this "guaranteed life"? In mathematical terms, of course. I would also like to see your math.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by crashfrog, posted 02-05-2004 3:07 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Skeptick
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 193 (83338)
02-05-2004 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by crashfrog
02-05-2004 3:55 AM


Your rebuttal was the entire reason we're talking about God now.
Correction, you are the one who brought God into discussion. Maybe you've been posting to far too many topics and you can't seem to remember what you've said where...?
You basically walked into my set-up,...
Oh no, my friend. You walked into mine, long ago, and have been struggling ever since.
You can't use complexity as an argument for the necessity of special creation because God could have set up life as an emergent property of chemistry, just as he set up snowflakes as an emergent property of water.
Oh, yes I can. You might want to read that again. What you've basically stated is that I can't use the argument because it's "not fair".
Cool. I'm glad we're on the same page, finally.
That's generally the last gasp argument used by someone who recognizes their hopeless position. But, ah, don't look now; we are NOT on the same page, bro.
I wasn't going to reply to this, because I don't want the last word - but....
Just as predicted. (smirk)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by crashfrog, posted 02-05-2004 3:55 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024