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Author Topic:   Even if there was a Designer, does it matter?
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 151 of 214 (598508)
12-31-2010 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Parasomnium
11-03-2010 4:19 AM


Re: It IS important
Hi Para'
You're not being specific enough, in that I do not believe it would follow that "we" would be wrong or bunk.
It's a bit of a compositional illusion.
Think about it. Natural selection is not bunk, mutations are not bunk, even speciation is not bunk, all of the facts "you guys" discovered are not bunk.
All of the errors of materialist's evolution-ideology are logical ones, not scientific or factual.
It's that there is no logical filter. For that reason, favouring nature alone, though it is as fallacious as the GOTG, is ignored.
You have to figure it out objectively, and that is not an easy task. But advise starting with thinking about the very base-assumptions, such as natural versus metaphysical.
Not only are there material causes, but perhaps motivational ones. And if this is ignored - what does that mean pertaining to your inferences?
For example, if you accepted a premise of a motivational cause, could you infer, for example, abiogenesis?
The fact is Para', is that all of the accumulated knowledge and all of the wise heads on earth, still do not give us omniscience.
The scientific mind is humble, saying; "we shall procede cautiously and tentatively". All mikey requests is that you take that admirable trait you employ for the units, and apply it to the whole.
Ultimately our divisions are ideological.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Parasomnium, posted 11-03-2010 4:19 AM Parasomnium has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 152 of 214 (598509)
12-31-2010 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by jar
12-31-2010 7:49 PM


The question is about whether or not the designer matters.
I believe it is then relevant to ask, to what end do you ask the question?
Are you therefore, for example, saying He does not matter?
I think the designer matters more.
Afterall, without the painter you don't get the painting, and it is an insult to not give the painter the credit.
I don't believe the creation is greater than the one Whom made it. Do you?
P.s. If you don't want to give your personal beliefs on the matter, that's ok.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by jar, posted 12-31-2010 7:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by jar, posted 12-31-2010 8:07 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 153 of 214 (598510)
12-31-2010 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by mike the wiz
12-31-2010 8:01 PM


Even if there was a Designer, does it matter?
I believe it is then relevant to ask, to what end do you ask the question?
To see if anyone can show some value to a designer other than the two I have mentioned, as an historical footnote or in cases of product liability.
Are you therefore, for example, saying He does not matter?
Other than in the two areas I have mentioned, so far no one has shown that the designer does matter.
Afterall, without the painter you don't get the painting, and it is an insult to not give the painter the credit.
LOL.
Again, I have covered that. Once the painting is there does it matter who painted it or even if it was painted other than in the two areas I have mentioned.
I don't believe the creation is greater than the one Whom made it. Do you?
Very, very often the thing created is greater than the creator.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by mike the wiz, posted 12-31-2010 8:01 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by mike the wiz, posted 12-31-2010 8:20 PM jar has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 154 of 214 (598512)
12-31-2010 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by jar
12-31-2010 8:07 PM


Re: Even if there was a Designer, does it matter?
Very, very often the thing created is greater than the creator.
That's not an objective statement.
Again, I have covered that. Once the painting is there does it matter who painted it or even if it was painted other than in the two areas I have mentioned
Yes, asking the question again as an answer, isn't an answer.
Other than in the two areas I have mentioned, so far no one has shown that the designer does matter.
That's just an arrogant statement.
It is a truism that the designer matters. For as I said - without the painter there is no painting.
All of th skills, powers, brilliance, and thought, beauty of the creation etc... tell us things about the designer. (Dn't mention the problem of evil and suffering please, it is an insult to my intelligence, and is not my point).
Therefore, if we deduce these amazing things from the design, that tell us about the designer, then the creation is just matter.
Here's some more logic to back up what I say;
If you create artwork, would I ask does it matter if there was an artist? No, nobody would. (Reductio ad absurdum)because the whole point of the creation is to convey something of the Creator.
If you have some reasons why my reasonings are faulty, then I'll be glad to hear them, but it seems the designer does matter, certainly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by jar, posted 12-31-2010 8:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by jar, posted 12-31-2010 8:25 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 155 of 214 (598513)
12-31-2010 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by mike the wiz
12-31-2010 8:20 PM


Re: Even if there was a Designer, does it matter?
If you create artwork, would I ask does it matter if there was an artist? No, nobody would. (Reductio ad absurdum)because the whole point of the creation is to convey something of the Creator.
Huh?
That might be important to the artist, but sorry, it is irrelevant to the viewer.
I can enjoy a painting regardless of whether it was painted by a human or a chimp. There is little anyone needs to learn about the designer from a design.
Does it matter who was the first person to design a radio?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by mike the wiz, posted 12-31-2010 8:20 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by mike the wiz, posted 12-31-2010 8:40 PM jar has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 156 of 214 (598517)
12-31-2010 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by jar
12-31-2010 8:25 PM


Re: Even if there was a Designer, does it matter?
The radio-example is not at all equal. Even a painting, is not at all adequate to compare with the universe.
Who cares what we apreciate. You will have to be more specific, as to what you now mean by, "does it matter?"
For example, it matters to me, that someone painted a picture, because I, as a painter, can apreciate the effort and care it took, but to a schoolboy it might not "matter", it might be something to throw food at for fun or paint a moustache on.
Also, as a follower of Christ (claim to be), I would say that a human being matters more than a rabbit, because a human is made in the image of God, whereas evolution would have us believe that a fly is equal to a human.
It seems a subjective question, yet you seem to require an objective answer.
I can only think of information being processed. Information means that you require more than matter itself. This would mean that that the relevance of the Creator is the relevance of the person that creates a PC, because without the intelligent mind of the respective designers, you don't get anything.
Logically this indirectly favours a designer "mattering", but for a person like you Jar, no offense, but I doubt very much that you could value anything I could offer anyway.
Bye for now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by jar, posted 12-31-2010 8:25 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by jar, posted 12-31-2010 8:47 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 157 of 214 (598519)
12-31-2010 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by mike the wiz
12-31-2010 8:40 PM


Re: Even if there was a Designer, does it matter?
Again, why does it matter?
Does it matter whether a painting was created by a painter or is the result of wind blowing berries across a paper?
How does the designer matter other than in the two areas I mentioned, as an historical footnote or in cases of product liability?
Why is the radio not a good example? Once we understand what was done, does it matter if it was designed originally or just a natural consequence?
Also, as a follower of Christ (claim to be), I would say that a human being matters more than a rabbit, because a human is made in the image of God, whereas evolution would have us believe that a fly is equal to a human.
Too funny. Come on Mikie. That is totally irrelevant. We are not debating the relative value of objects. Try to stay on topic.
Edited by jar, : gotta stop them extra 'e's

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by mike the wiz, posted 12-31-2010 8:40 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by mike the wiz, posted 12-31-2010 8:58 PM jar has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 158 of 214 (598521)
12-31-2010 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by jar
12-31-2010 8:47 PM


Re: Even if there was a Designer, does it matter?
You're simply re-asserting the same things.
As for evolution, it is true that objectively it follows logically that a fly has the same value as a human and/or no value, like a human.
If you don't believe me, believe your dear old mate Richard Dawkins, who says that the universe is indifferent, meaning value is subjective.
So then, are you asking my subjective value of God? If not - you have to fairly give an example of what would make the designer, "matter".
For example, if I was arguing that pigs don't fly and it is stupid to believe they do - my reasonable duty is to qualify what would diminish my argument.
In this case, evidence of a pig flying.
You don't seem to want an answer. I gave the information example. Information requires more than matter. DNA contains code and syntax (nucleotides), semantics,(arrangement), pragmatics and apobetics resulting in the synthesized and processed result.
An example is the difference between scrawling on a piece of paper and writing. They both contain the same amount of paper and ink - therefore logically, the designer "matters" because He is a vital part. He himself is the difference between the scrawl and the writing. He is the vital, and therefore scientifically and logically meaningful element, any way you cut it.
That's my views on it, thanks for your time. Kind regards, mike.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by jar, posted 12-31-2010 8:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by jar, posted 12-31-2010 9:02 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 159 of 214 (598523)
12-31-2010 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by mike the wiz
12-31-2010 8:58 PM


Re: Even if there was a Designer, does it matter?
Thanks for your view. What does any of it have to do with the topic? In case you forgot what the topic is here is a hint.
Even if there was a Designer, does it matter?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by mike the wiz, posted 12-31-2010 8:58 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 160 of 214 (598543)
01-01-2011 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Philip Johnson
12-30-2010 10:02 AM


Re: Even if there was a Designer, does it matter?
If there is a designer, then if you, for example, are a serial killer, it won't change, perhaps, the outcome. Someone causally might be murdered, but there is an eternal weight to what you do, if there is a designer, because you will answer to Him.
It seems to me that Jar is saying that it doesn't matter physically, in the sense that it doesn't change events in the universe.
But the bible clearly says that God holds the universe together, and is active in His creation.
For example, when I prayed at a time of trouble, and felt the presence of God heal me, if the designer did not matter, then that would not matter.
But ofcourse it matters. What would have happened in our lives without the designer's help?
It only seems to not matter to those who are without God, that have not been given the gift of faith, but only have ideologies, or political opinions, etc....people that live for this world, and hold no genuine value in God, and see Him as not mattering.
To the person that has never had truly life-changing faith, they can't comprehend God. To them, god is just a religious term, because He has not affected their lives.
Here is an example of a true saving-faith, that changes life. Boy does it matter!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcOvWGuQTow&playnext=1&li...
You see, if you REALLY DO believe in God - nothing else matters. This is why Paul gave up everything, saying that we are the most pitiable of people, if Christ was not crucified and raised.
Keep up the good work, Philip.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Philip Johnson, posted 12-30-2010 10:02 AM Philip Johnson has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by jar, posted 01-01-2011 9:03 AM mike the wiz has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 161 of 214 (598546)
01-01-2011 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by mike the wiz
01-01-2011 8:04 AM


Conflating the designer with care and maintenance
I'm sorry Mikie but you are just conflating ideas and subjects. You describe something that helps you, maybe like a mechanic changing tires or a plumber cleaning the sink trap.
But that is not related to the question of a designer.
Edited by jar, : fix subtitle

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by mike the wiz, posted 01-01-2011 8:04 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by mike the wiz, posted 01-01-2011 11:43 AM jar has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 162 of 214 (598559)
01-01-2011 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by jar
01-01-2011 9:03 AM


Re: Conflating the designer with care and maintenance
It's not that I'm conflating anything, jarry. I believe you've misunderstood.
(Could you please call me mike. I call myself mikey because I belittle myself, but when you say it it's condescending. I don't know if you're aware of that though.)
I've gave you opportunities to do the following for purposes of clarity;
1. Define what you mean by "matters". (For example, if the universe can't carry on without the designer's maintenance, does the designer "matter", therefore, objectively speaking? If not - what does? Define it so we can qualify something, otherwise you can sit back in your chair and just say, "it has nothing to do with the subject", all day long. Anybody can do that about any subject.
2. I gave examples of something "mattering", both subjective and objective examples, because I am in the dark as to what you mean by "matters".
It seems no suggestion whatsoever would satisfy you, which means you are not asking anything, you already simply believe that a designer does not matter, no matter what sound reasoning is put forward. Yet where are your reasons as to why He does not matter?
As for your plumber examples, they do not EQUATE to a life-changing experience.
There is no equivalence between a man changing a car tyre, and the universe not existing, or a life being changed dramatically.
If you could elaborate more as to why a designer does not matter, then that would be useful because then I could understand your line of reasoning. So far, it just seems you are asking the question and assuming the default truth that a designer does not matter.
Example;
Do pigs matter.
Right, nobody has told me so there are no reasons so far that I can see why a pig matters.
Well, logically that doesn't mean that pigs do not matter. It just means nobody has satisfied your request because you are rigging it so that they can't.
Perhaps you could point me to a post, that explains your position more, in this lengthy thread? I will also re-read the O.P. to see if I have misunderstood anything. Apologies if I have.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by jar, posted 01-01-2011 9:03 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by jar, posted 01-01-2011 11:56 AM mike the wiz has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 163 of 214 (598562)
01-01-2011 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by mike the wiz
01-01-2011 11:43 AM


Re: Conflating the designer with care and maintenance
Look at your examples mike the wiz, what do they have to do with whether or not there was a designer?
The earth goes on.
A something maintaining crap is irrelevant to whether or not the mechanic was the designer.
You having the cold chills in some experience is irrelevant to whether or not there was a designer.
Things exist, whether they were designed or not. And when we look at those things we know are designed and the characteristics of known designed objects, and then look at the rest of the universe, we do not find the characteristics that are typical of designed things.
How is a plumber any different than a life changing experience and even so, what does that have to do with whether or not there is a designer? The plumber is still capable of unclogging the toilet (water closet or loo or WC) even if he is not the designer.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by mike the wiz, posted 01-01-2011 11:43 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by mike the wiz, posted 01-01-2011 12:37 PM jar has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 164 of 214 (598573)
01-01-2011 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by jar
01-01-2011 11:56 AM


Re: Conflating the designer with care and maintenance
In other words; no mike, I won't define what I mean or elaborate or answer those requests.
You are compelled by opinion, you have no energy for reason.
You having the cold chills in some experience is irrelevant to whether or not there was a designer.
I didn't have cold chills.
Things exist, whether they were designed or not. And when we look at those things we know are designed and the characteristics of known designed objects, and then look at the rest of the universe, we do not find the characteristics that are typical of designed things.
"We", being the operative word.
Who cares what "we" see. How will that change that design in organisms is a truism?
Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by jar, posted 01-01-2011 11:56 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by jar, posted 01-01-2011 12:45 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 165 of 214 (598575)
01-01-2011 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by mike the wiz
01-01-2011 12:37 PM


Re: Conflating the designer with care and maintenance
Kinda left out the parts of that post that answered your questions mike the wiz.
quote:
Look at your examples mike the wiz, what do they have to do with whether or not there was a designer?
The earth goes on.
A something maintaining crap is irrelevant to whether or not the mechanic was the designer.
You having the cold chills in some experience is irrelevant to whether or not there was a designer.
Things exist, whether they were designed or not. And when we look at those things we know are designed and the characteristics of known designed objects, and then look at the rest of the universe, we do not find the characteristics that are typical of designed things.
How is a plumber any different than a life changing experience and even so, what does that have to do with whether or not there is a designer? The plumber is still capable of unclogging the toilet (water closet or loo or WC) even if he is not the designer.
I asked a question. When someone provides what they think might be an answer, then we can examine that response. You gave some examples and I responded to them. Can someone maintain something even if that person was not the designer of the object?
"We", being the operative word.
Who cares what "we" see. How will that change that design in organisms is a truism?
Huh?
Design in organisms is a truism?
Even if that were true, does the designer matter?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by mike the wiz, posted 01-01-2011 12:37 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by mike the wiz, posted 01-01-2011 1:04 PM jar has replied

  
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