|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Charismatic Chaos | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: Where they disagree with you is that they would maintain that belief in Jesus Christ does in fact have relevance. But again you misrepresent what I have said repeatedly. Why do you try to rewrite my position to fit your needs? I have never said we will be judged based on our beliefs and do not think beliefs will have any relevance at all. I reviewed some of the scripture and found the followingBlueLetterBible)quote: Edited by Thugpreacha, : broken quoteThe only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: The Bible is clear on this issue. Yet even though you cherry picked only those verses you thought might support your position, even some that you included refute your position. No Phat, the Bible is very seldom clear on this issue or anything else.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: I included them because I believe that it is both works and belief in conjunction that sum up the teaching. You have used Matthew 25 to justify that belief does not matter, but I often wonder why you initially chose to "cherry-pick" that verse so often. Yet even though you cherry-picked only those verses you thought might support your position, even some that you included refuting your position. No Phat, the Bible is very seldom clear on this issue or anything else. Again, I observe that you reserve a disdain for any lazy guy who gets saved only by grace through faith. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: I included them because I believe that it is both works and belief in conjunction that sum up the teaching. You have used Matthew 25 to justify that belief does not matter, but I often wonder why you initially chose to "cherry-pick" that verse so often. Again, I observe that you reserve a disdain for any lazy guy who gets saved only by grace through faith. But I don't pick just Matt 25 and you and I have discussed this repeatedly. The Bible is filled with contradictory writings and ambiguous writings and some facts and lots of fantasy. And again, I have to wonder how you can so consistently misrepresent my position. If anyone is saved it will be solely through Grace. But Grace through Faith has absolutely no meaning or value or worth that I can see. And there are as many passages in the Bible that support my position as refute it. The Bible is simply a compendium of what humans wrote reflecting the era and mythos they lived in and experienced. Works gain you nothing; they are a charge and a task that Jesus placed on his followers. Failure in those tasks can damn you but doing them gains you nothing. BUT, they do make this life better for others. It's all we can do.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
|
Phat writes:
It isn't my assertion. It's what you said, in Message 312: "The reason that I believe this is not entirely due to the indoctrination of religious dogma by the churches that I have attended." ringo writes:
That's quite an assertion coming from you. As I pointed out, you felt what you were taught to feel. You experienced what you were taught to expect.
Phat writes:
I don't dismiss your experiences. I dismiss your interpretation of your experiences - not because they are different from anybody else's but because they're the same. You interpret your experiences the same way as other fundies interpret their experiences because you have been taught to interpret them that way.
... you seem to dismiss any experiences I have had which differed from what you or anyone else has had. Phat writes:
On the contrary, I have a pretty good idea because I have heard the same interpretation from a lot of other people.
... you have no idea what I have believed, (apart from my words here at the Forum) the experiences I have had hearing actual voices (also heard by two others) and feeling my hair stand on end. Phat writes:
Well, there you go. Your pre-existing beliefs were supported. Confirmation bias.
Nor the confirming events which supported my otherwise illogical beliefs. Phat writes:
This is what bugs me most about believers. If there are things in life that are "unexplained", why do you insist on explaining them? And why do you refuse to accept any explanation but your own?
There are unexplained events in life... Phat writes:
That is not how debate works. You're supposed to debate the point made regardless of whether your counterpart believes it or not.
Jesus. (Whom you don't believe existed anyway, so I find it a waste of time to argue with you about it) Phat writes:
Maybe you really don't understand how absurd that sounds. You actually put the voices in your head before the only external source you have. What arrogance. What hubris.
ringo writes:
Unlike Tangle, I don't believe that Jesus was simply a character in a book. What Jesus says to me is more than some ancient written down scripture. The issue is that you deny what Jesus said Phat writes:
No he didn't. His beliefs were pretty similar to yours.
You and your Dad must have been a pair! He taught you how to read the bible in a common-sense way... Phat writes:
I turned it against stupidity and lies.
... and you turned it against organized religion and the church. Phat writes:
Resources have always been scarce. The way humans react is by getting together and producing more resources.
You will be surprised someday when your precious global socialists end up fighting along with the rest of the people as resources grow scarce. Phat writes:
I have not made any charge against you. I don't know why you're so defensive about that.
It will only be then when you may find your charge against me will apply to you. Phat writes:
No. He doesn't. He never did. But the principle attributed to Him is a good one.
He exists. Phat writes:
ringo is responsible for doing it himself. Nobody else is going to do it for him.
ringo is not in charge nor free to rebel without consequences. Phat writes:
It already does. Get a grip on reality. And no, global socialism will never work as long as human nature is as it is."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
foreveryoung writes:
No. The criterion for recognizing that somebody is in a (mind-control) cult is that they refuse to look at any sources outside the cult. It seems to me the criteria for labeling someone as being in a cult is simply believing the miracles in the bible are true."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: That's logical. It's like that whole global warming thing...sometimes it feels like making changes is just a drop in the bucket and uncomfortable for us to do. I reuse my plastic bags for now, but the state legislature already passed a bill to charge everyone for plastic use, so the change is happening slowly. Works gain you nothing; they are a charge and a task that Jesus placed on his followers. Failure in those tasks can damn you but doing them gains you nothing. BUT, they do make this life better for others. It's all we can do. We have bigger fish to fry. You always remind us that the proverbial bill will get paid. Global Money is inflationary, easy, and cheap. Billionaires are pushing millionaires out of choice properties. The global debt is staggering. The Bill itself is larger than the total money supply of the population's savings. The Jesus whom the apologists say will come back may not come as soon as we need Him. Global Warming is an unavoidable reality. Global conflict seems increasingly likely. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: The Jesus whom the apologists say will come back may not come as soon as we need Him. The only evidence available is what is written about Jesus in the Bible Phat and no where in any of it does it show Jesus ever solving our problems. The closest example might be the Loaves and Fishes parable but even there it is the disciples who distribute the food and gather up the left overs to feed more later. The deplorable factor that defines the CCoI and the Apologists is that they all expect Jesus or God to make everything better. The stories though repeatedly tell us to make everything better.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9076 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
Maybe you should confirm before you accuse? Without the context of what was said or who actually said it, we have no way of knowing if being told you were in a cult is justified or not.
Believing in biblical miracle is down the road to cultishness in my view. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
He is referring to the CCoI, the Christian Cult of Ignorance.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: All that I really do is explain how I believe and interpret these events. Many do happen to agree with me, but it is not because of what we were taught so much as it is what we experienced. Call it confirmation bias if you must, but believers who have had a born again experience sounds similar because what they experienced was similar. If there are things in life that are "unexplained", why do you insist on explaining them? And why do you refuse to accept any explanation but your own? I think this is something that unbelievers do not understand. They have a lot of pre-assumptions, to begin with. Namely:
In short, we explain our experience. We affirm that it occurred before we were taught what to expect or how to behave. We believe that even in our charismatic churches, perhaps 20% of the congregation understands it as we do but among these believers, there is little if any controversy. Controversy only happens in places like EvC where awareness is limited.
ringo writes: Because there is only one explanation. And why do you refuse to accept any explanation but your own? I will now confess something that happened just last night in a dream. I awoke EvC Forum and ringo on my mind. God had clearly told me that you were right regarding my refusal to listen to what Jesus told me to do. Mind you, I would question it if anyone walked up to me and told me it, but I *knew* that it was Jesus speaking to me in my sub-conscience. And I won't bother explaining or defending such a belief. It is what it is. He has been impressing a lot on my rebellious fleshly state of mind lately, and I choose to listen and trust this inner voice, despite the fact that to outside observers I would appear to be slightly daft. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9076 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
Wow!
LOL. What a maroon. I knew the context was other than what he made it seem. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar, referring to foreveryoungs charge of being branded writes: As I said before, the reality of what ends up being true versus what is exposed as conman fraud is far from simply being defined in light of logic, reason, and reality. We live in a world where rationality is being suspended. take the creation of New Money Along with the specter of Climate Change, New Money will lead to the breakdown of society as we know it. The Bill will come due and the Climate will change and the nutters will continue to distort the truth and so will the skeptics, atheists, and rationalists. The jury is still out regarding the Rapture, but I can just about bet you that within the next 30 years, in addition to more powerful hurricanes, bankrupt economies, bills long overdue getting foreclosed upon, and aging nuclear stockpiles in the hands of populist leaders, humanity will face its greatest challenge. He is referring to the CCoI, the Christian Cult of Ignorance. And I expect at least one electromagnetic pulse event that will wipe out our electrical grid and fry all of our cellphones...itself an event of apocalyptic potential to Millenials. You and i clearly disagree on the degree of God's involvement, but for believers, the god whom we believe is in communion with us in our minds will play a BIG role. Pick your side now, jar. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Pick your side now, jar. Picked long ago Phat, it's the side that does not reduce GOD to merely Jeeves.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: I understand that. But surely there is a middle ground between God as living and active bestower of favor and an unknown (and unknowable) afterlife judge. Hypothetically, what would you do if reality proved that ultimately God was alive through the Holy Spirit, only a few stumbled upon this truth (either by accident or design) and the believers had a handicap of ignorance while the truly smart ones didn't allow themselves to believe in such a God? Picked long ago Phat, it's the side that does not reduce GOD to merely Jeeves. In other words, what if its not simply what we *do* but on how we treat each other and find a communion to relate to such a God? Or would you simply laugh in His face? Would we be judged on how we treated the planet and tried to preserve life for others? Would we be judged on how we reacted to money? Would we be judged based on how we responded to God as we understood Him?The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024