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Author Topic:   A question for Athiests/Evolutionists. (re: How can one not belive in something greater than himself? et all)
TheClashFan
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 282 (161906)
11-20-2004 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by AdminNosy
11-20-2004 2:42 PM


Re: Topic
No, I don't. People are answering my questions, so by all means shall I answer theirs, but thank you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by AdminNosy, posted 11-20-2004 2:42 PM AdminNosy has not replied

  
TheClashFan
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 282 (161910)
11-20-2004 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by happy_atheist
11-20-2004 5:38 PM


That is a very good answer. I suppose that many religious people like to know(or rather think, in your point of view) that there is a place after death where we can be with our loved ones forever, though that is not my reason. Many others, I assume, like to feel apart of something greater than themselves. Thank you for your answer, it was one that I was looking for. Very direct.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by happy_atheist, posted 11-20-2004 5:38 PM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by happy_atheist, posted 11-20-2004 6:17 PM TheClashFan has not replied

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5615 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 48 of 282 (161912)
11-20-2004 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by sidelined
11-20-2004 2:03 PM


Re: It's a matter of choice
sidelined writes:
I must disagree on the strange shadows and spiritual nature stuff.I do agree that I have felt deep emotions but how is this a mystery since it is our brains that produce the emotions we feel.
There are emotions or feelings that I consider spiritual. Love for example is one of them. I don't believe the idea that love is our brain finding a way for our body to reproduce because we all know that we don't need to be in love to reproduce. So I guess my question is: What's the purpose of our brain creating the idea of love? There apparently no need for it.
sidelined writes:
It is far more likely that god is an invention of wishful thinking to help deal with the hard actualities of life than it is an actual entity
So you are basically saying that the history of the jews is also "an invention of wishful thinking" and that a person named Jesus who made one of the biggest impacts in history is also "an invention of wishful thinking" It it was an invention of our imagination why do we divide time in BC and AC
sidelined writes:
So how would you know this to be so? Are you privy to knowing what god thinks or looks at? Indeed can you even explain what you mean by "the hearts of men"? I really would like to hear what you have to say on this.
1 Samuel 16:7 everything you need to know is here.

Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by sidelined, posted 11-20-2004 2:03 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by happy_atheist, posted 11-20-2004 6:15 PM Itachi Uchiha has not replied
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The Dread Dormammu
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 282 (161914)
11-20-2004 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by TheClashFan
11-19-2004 9:24 PM


Define "greater than oneself"
Just because someone is an atheist doesn't mean that they don't beleive in things greater than themselves.
I beleve, or have faith in the followion things, democracy (though I must admit this is a trying time for my faith), Science, the power of rational debate, certian ethical theories, and even the various communities that I am part of.
Do these qualify as things that are greater than myself? They are not greater than mankind perhaps but they are greater than any one human.
Perhaps if you explained what you meant by this phrase we could discuss it better.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by TheClashFan, posted 11-19-2004 9:24 PM TheClashFan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by TheClashFan, posted 11-20-2004 6:41 PM The Dread Dormammu has replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 50 of 282 (161916)
11-20-2004 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Itachi Uchiha
11-20-2004 5:58 PM


Re: It's a matter of choice
jazzlover_PR writes:
So you are basically saying that the history of the jews is also "an invention of wishful thinking" and that a person named Jesus who made one of the biggest impacts in history is also "an invention of wishful thinking" It it was an invention of our imagination why do we divide time in BC and AC
The day is spit into two 12 hour halves because the ancient egyptians believed that Osiris spent the night passing through the 12 gates of hell. Does this mean that this literally happens, or just that humans are very symbolic? Not all countries ground their date the same as we do btw.

This message is a reply to:
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happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 51 of 282 (161917)
11-20-2004 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by TheClashFan
11-20-2004 5:48 PM


Thanks for the complients
TheClashFan writes:
Many others, I assume, like to feel apart of something greater than themselves.
I consider the universe to be greater than myself, if that counts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by TheClashFan, posted 11-20-2004 5:48 PM TheClashFan has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 52 of 282 (161920)
11-20-2004 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Itachi Uchiha
11-20-2004 5:58 PM


It it was an invention of our imagination why do we divide time in BC and AC
Well, not everybody does. The Hebrew and Chinese calendars don't, for instance.
Why do we do it? Because you Christians used to control everything in the Western world, including the calendars.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-20-2004 5:58 PM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

  
TheClashFan
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 282 (161925)
11-20-2004 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by The Dread Dormammu
11-20-2004 6:05 PM


Re: Define "greater than oneself"
I meant the term as in spiritualy. To feel a part of something spiritually greater than oneself. Democracy and communities are greater things than oneself because they affect others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 11-20-2004 6:05 PM The Dread Dormammu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 11-20-2004 6:56 PM TheClashFan has replied
 Message 55 by happy_atheist, posted 11-20-2004 6:57 PM TheClashFan has not replied

  
The Dread Dormammu
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 282 (161930)
11-20-2004 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by TheClashFan
11-20-2004 6:41 PM


Re: Define "greater than oneself"
I meant the term as in spiritualy. To feel a part of something spiritually greater than oneself.
Well, If one doesn't belive in spirits at all then one can't beleve in things that are more spirtiualy powerful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by TheClashFan, posted 11-20-2004 6:41 PM TheClashFan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by TheClashFan, posted 11-21-2004 2:00 PM The Dread Dormammu has not replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 55 of 282 (161931)
11-20-2004 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by TheClashFan
11-20-2004 6:41 PM


Re: Define "greater than oneself"
I guess that all boils down to what you mean by spirituality. If you mean something refering to an actualy "spirit" that you think exists seperate from your body, then I have no belief in that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by TheClashFan, posted 11-20-2004 6:41 PM TheClashFan has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 56 of 282 (161933)
11-20-2004 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Itachi Uchiha
11-20-2004 5:58 PM


Re: It's a matter of choice
jazzlover_PR
There are emotions or feelings that I consider spiritual. Love for example is one of them. I don't believe the idea that love is our brain finding a way for our body to reproduce because we all know that we don't need to be in love to reproduce. So I guess my question is: What's the purpose of our brain creating the idea of love? There apparently no need for it.
Well we can go further into this when we can express what we consider to be love and the motives behind it.Could you discuss with me the nature of what you would call love? That we have feelings and emotions is a result of physical phenomena in the structure and chemistry of our brain.
So you are basically saying that the history of the jews is also "an invention of wishful thinking" and that a person named Jesus who made one of the biggest impacts in history is also "an invention of wishful thinking" It it was an invention of our imagination why do we divide time in BC and AC
First off there is much to be desired in way of evidence for the existence of Jesus.There are no independent accounts of Jesus outside of scriptures during the period of his claimed existence.
That the character Jesus had an impact is a misleading statement since he did not have any impact whatsoever.People who supported the notion of a Jesus and the subsequent actions that they took are what constitutes any impacts on history.
1 Samuel 16:7 everything you need to know is here.
But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for [the LORD seeth] not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.
Again I will ask how does a verse from an ancient text reveal the nature of god rather than merely the opinion of the writer as to the nature of god? How could this man have any more insight into gods capabilities than you since he also cannot be capable of understanding god as you say?

"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
--Don Hirschberg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-20-2004 5:58 PM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

Replies to this message:
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 57 of 282 (161944)
11-20-2004 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by TheClashFan
11-20-2004 5:37 PM


I think evil behaviour arises in various brain functions either problems with inherited behaviours, or developmental problems, or programming/conditioning.
I think Ted Bundy was one of the sickiest most evil people I've ever heard of but I don't think we need to invoke demons to explain his extremely rare form of deviance i.e. sexual psychopath serial killer. Someone else on this list may have more information but I've never heard of a single cure of an adult psychopath. I've read about some therapies designed to treat children who show the signs of not being bonded to people and who enjoy torturing animals for example. I've certainly not heard of any psychopaths being cured by excorcism so I don't see any functional value in a diagnosis of demon possession.
Speaking figuratively of behaviour as being demonic, or someone possessed I understand but I don't think that means we can profit at all from invoking demons as a serious explanatory principle. Again it's science that has made some strides in treating these conditions.
There are also strange behaviours that can be shown to arise from various brain damages. Phineas Gauge's famous damage to his frontal lobes leading him to be transformed from a responsible hard working individual to an impulsive irresponsible person is an example.
I hope you will continue your education after high school and take some courses in psychology and science to go study these problems in more depth. When I went to high school we only learned the most basic of information. College offers a lot more.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by TheClashFan, posted 11-20-2004 5:37 PM TheClashFan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by TheClashFan, posted 11-21-2004 2:05 PM lfen has replied
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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 58 of 282 (161950)
11-20-2004 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by TheClashFan
11-20-2004 5:37 PM


How can this stuff happen? Cause humans are a fucked up lot, its the simplest answer without having to resort to imaginary beings. Either that or the benevolent Christian god lets it happen.

*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by TheClashFan, posted 11-20-2004 5:37 PM TheClashFan has replied

Replies to this message:
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Morte
Member (Idle past 6103 days)
Posts: 140
From: Texas
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 59 of 282 (161984)
11-21-2004 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Itachi Uchiha
11-20-2004 1:26 PM


Re: It's a matter of choice
(Starting off a little off track here, but it ties into the main topic)
quote:
We all choose what we want to believe.
People are always telling me this, but I really don't think it's true. I never chose what I believe, and even if I went to church for the rest of my life and tried to act as a Christian I couldn't force myself to believe in something - just want to believe in it. External causes (such as new data or evidence) or internal uncontrolled causes (such as what I call my epiphany moments, those moments when suddenly everything makes sense but seem to come randomly) can change my beliefs, but I can't choose them actively. Perhaps my thought process is simply different from most, but I cannot simply say, "I want to believe this" and cause myself to believe it.
Therefore, in response to the original post:
quote:
How can one not belive in something greater than himself? How can one go through life's difficulties and be unable to always know that at least one person loves you? At times, it is my only comfort knowing that God loves me, and I cannot understand how one can go through life without belief in something. Can anyone give me a good reason on why they do not belive in any omnipotent being or diety?
(Of course, it's already been covered, but I do believe in greater things than myself - just that God isn't one of them) I don't believe in God because I can't believe in God. At least, not the God of the Bible - the supposed contradictions in what God is supposed to be and what He does, the history behind the Bible and how it was written, and to a lesser extent, science - all of these play a part in this belief. At the same time, I have irrational beliefs, and I recognize them as such, but I still can't force myself to believe differently - I'm logic-oriented, but not logic-based. I suppose you could say I am to a stereotypical logic-based atheist what a biblical non-literalist is to a fundamentalist.
I get the sense, though, that your question was more directed at how one can exist without the hope of a guiding being, rather than how one can not believe in it (since your questions, last one aside, had more to do with the comfort religion brings than the basis of one's belief). This question seems especially appropriate to me right now; I just recently reached a very lonely place, relatively, in my life, and at times I truly wish there were some greater being I could place my troubles upon. But when it comes down to it, all I really need to move forward is the idea that at some point, things will get better. As time passes, eventually things will right themselves - with an effort on my part, of course. Not fate, as it might seem (I don't believe in that, either), but simple hope. And it's really not that different from yours, from your God.
We both derive our comfort from hope; the only difference is what form the hope takes.

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 Message 28 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-20-2004 1:26 PM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

Replies to this message:
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happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 60 of 282 (162012)
11-21-2004 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Morte
11-21-2004 3:19 AM


Re: It's a matter of choice
Morte writes:
Perhaps my thought process is simply different from most, but I cannot simply say, "I want to believe this" and cause myself to believe it.
I don't think your thought processes are at all different from most, what you describe is exactly the way it is. There is no way whatsoever to simply choose to believe something. As an example I usually say something like "Take a look at your sofa and choose to believe a leprechaun is sat in it. Truly believe it, not just pretend it's real." It simply can't be done. The same is true of the opposite of course. If I truly do believe something is true I can't just choose to stop believing, unless something external to myself makes me stop believing.
Morte writes:
I get the sense, though, that your question was more directed at how one can exist without the hope of a guiding being, rather than how one can not believe in it (since your questions, last one aside, had more to do with the comfort religion brings than the basis of one's belief).
Yes, I get that impression too. As I said in my original post in this thread though, if you don't believe in a god to start with then there is absolutely no comfort to be gained from the concept of a god. You would be wasting your time to try and get comfort from something you know you don't believe in, it would be self delusional and probably not all that helpful.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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