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Member (Idle past 4956 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Is the bible authoritive and truly inspired? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
archaeologist writes: JAR keeps repeting the same thing over an dover AFTER being told repeatedly that he CANNOT claim there are errors in the mss. because he does not have the originals. Why can't I? I can look at what we do have and point to the factual errors and contradictions. I can also point out that Jesus, Paul and Peter all said that many of the laws passed away, were in error.
archaeologist writes: we have the originals, God has preserved them people need to learn to accept the reality that false teachers will write their own versions to fit their beliefs. So you claim, yet you never produce the alleged originals. Further, the material that you guys have presented can be shown to be factually incorrect. There was no Biblical Flood. That's a fact. There is no evidence of the Biblical Exodus and lots of evidence that it never happened. The description of the conquest of Canaan as described in Joshuah is certainly wrong. The creation myth in Genesis 1 contradicts the account in Genesis 2 in both order and methods and the two gods described are totally different. In addition...
quote: That one is saying that the words can be trusted and that the ruler should preserve them. Nothing in there about whether or not it was done or about any of the other stories. Then there is Deuteronomy 4:1-2.
quote: Note that is specifically talking about the Laws in Deuteronomy and we know from later stories that Jesus himself as well as Peter and Paul did subtract from them. And this thread is a great example of the next one.
quote: As shown above, you guys are adding to what was actually said and changing the meanings. Finally this one.
quote: If you take that passage to mean the Bible then it appears Jesus was wrong. So far there is not one original copy of any book found in any of the different Bibles, so the originals did pass away and we do not know what Jesus or God's words were. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4216 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
f you want evidence, then listen to it the FIRST TIME it is presented. When some legitimate evidence is shown, I 'll look at it. As for listening, how can I listen to something that was said between 2000 & 5000 years ago? There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002 Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969 Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 828 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Thank you, not a real archaeologist, I now believe in unicorns thanks to god's word and your repeated claim that it is god's word. I cannot believe it took this long for me to see the error of my ways.
Deuteronomy 33:17 His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh. Job 39:9-10 Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib? Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee? Psalms 22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns. Psalms 29:6 He maketh them also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn. Psalms 92:10 But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil. Numbers 23:22 God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn. Numbers 24:8 God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows. Isaiah 34:7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. I mean, the KJV is god's word, right? "A still more glorious dawn awaits
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise A morning filled with 400 billion suns The rising of the milky way" -Carl Sagan
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 761 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
we know that nothing is too hard for God thus putting His original words into english or any language to preserve them is not that difficult for Him especially when He wants all men to be saved. So which of the dozens of English translations is it that preserves these "original words?" And how are these "original words" the same in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, and English as well as in Turkish, Tagalog, and Tahitian? Are you telling me that ALL of those "preserve" the precise same meaning of "emerod" or "unicorn?" And those two are just the easy nouns....... Added by edit - I did not see the previous post before mentioning unicorns in this one. Praise be to the Invisible Pink Unicorn!!! Holy are Her Hooves! Edited by Coragyps, : No reason given. "The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD
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Buzsaw Inactive Member
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jar writes: Again, you present nothing but unsupported assertions.Where is the evidence that shows "The manuscripts we have are old enough to the originals to be near perfect. "? The quantity, literal compatibility and age of the manuscripts support authenticity.
Many of these variants simply involve a missing letter in a word; some involve reversing the order of two words (such as "Christ Jesus" instead of "Jesus Christ"); some may involve the absence of one or more insignificant words. Really, when all the facts are put on the table, only about 50 of the variants have any real significance - and even then, no doctrine of the Christian faith or any moral commandment is effected by them. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Buz writes: The quantity, literal compatibility and age of the manuscripts support authenticity. I'm sorry but where is the evidence? What does quantity have to do with authenticity? What does age have to do with authenticity? What does literal compatibility of copies have to do with authenticity? Even if true, how does any of that relate to the question of the topic which is "Is the bible authoritative and truly inspired?" If they are truly inspired how do you explain the factual errors such as the fact that the Biblical Flood never happened? If they are truly authoritative why is there no universally accepted Canon? Was God unable to inspire folk to know what books should be included? Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Kapyong Member (Idle past 3469 days) Posts: 344 Joined:
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archeologist writes: here is the gist of it: the Bible in 2 Tim. 3:16 tells us that 'all scripture is God beathed. (2 Tim 3:16 KJV)
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: Christians love to quote this passage as if it proves the Bible is inpired, but there are several serious problems with this passage :
2 Tim 3:16 is ambiguous The meaning of 2 Tim 3:16 is ambiguous in the Greek because the "is" is not found in Greek. Here is Young's literal translation, which hedges it's bets by including "is" not found in the original :
16 every Writing ('is') God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that ('is') in righteousness, Here is the literal translation without the fudged "is" :
16 every Writing God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that in righteousness, Here is what essay on bible.org says about the variant translation :"Such a translation is possible, but not required. Actually either translation can claim to be accurate. Both translations have to supply the word is since it does not appear in the original." 5. The Bible: The Inspired Revelation of God | Bible.org Some Bible versions do have the variant : (2 Tim 3:16 REB) All inspired scripture has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, or for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, (2 Tim 3:16 Lamsa) All scripture written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness; (2 Tim 3:16 NEB) Every inspired scripture has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, or for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, (2 Tim 3:16 ASV) Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness. (2 Tim 3:16 YLT) every Writing [is] God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that [is] in righteousness, (2 Tim 3:16 Darby) Every scripture [is] divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; (2 Tim 3:16 WYC) For all scripture inspired of God is profitable to teach, to reprove, to chastise, [for] to learn in rightwiseness, (2 Tim 3:16 Douay-Rheims) All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice: (2 Tim 3:16 Webster's) All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (2 Tim 3:16 Inspired Version) And all scripture given by inspiration of God, is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; (2 Tim 3:16 Brown and Comfort Interlinear) ALL SCRIPTURE [IS] GOD-BREATHED AND USEFUL FOR TEACHING, FOR REPROOF, FOR CORRECTION FOR TRAINING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, GNT's note at 2 Timothy 3:16 that gives "Every scripture inspired by God is also useful" as a valid translation (and one that implies that not all scripture is inspired).
Note that apologists never quote this version of the translation, because it doesn't say what they want it to. New Testament didn't exist when Timothy was written It is basic Christian history that the NT did not exist when Timothy was written. Timothy was written in early-mid 2nd century (mid 1st according to Christian stories though) But the NT did not exist as a collection until 4th century.
Timothy could not possibly have been cailling ITSELF "scripture" as it was being written, could it ? Timothy is a forged letter It is a well known consensus of NT scholars that the Pastorals were forged letters, not by Paul. You can read some details here as to why :2 Timothy An excerpt follows : 2 Timothy is one of the three epistles known collectively as the pastorals (1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus). They were not included in Marcion's canon of ten epistles assembled c. 140 CE. Against Wallace, there is no certain quotation of these epistles before Irenaeus c. 170 CE. Norman Perrin summarises four reasons that have lead critical scholarship to regard the pastorals as inauthentic (The New Testament: An Introduction, pp. 264-5): Vocabulary. While statistics are not always as meaningful as they may seem, of 848 words (excluding proper names) found in the Pastorals, 306 are not in the remainder of the Pauline corpus, even including the deutero-Pauline 2 Thessalonians, Colossians, and Ephesians. Of these 306 words, 175 do not occur elsewhere in the New Testament, while 211 are part of the general vocabulary of Christian writers of the second century. Indeed, the vocabulary of the Pastorals is closer to that of popular Hellenistic philosophy than it is to the vocabulary of Paul or the deutero-Pauline letters. Furthermore, the Pastorals use Pauline words ina non-Pauline sense: dikaios in Paul means "righteous" and here means "upright"; pistis, "faith, " has become "the body of Christian faith"; and so on. Literary [myspace]style[/myspace]. Paul writes a characteristically dynamic Greek, with dramatic arguments, emotional outbursts, and the introduction of real or imaginary opponents and partners in dialogue. The Pastorals are in a quiet meditative [myspace]style[/myspace], far more characteristic of Hebrews or 1 Peter, or even of literary Hellenistic Greek in general, than of the Corinthian correspondence or of Romans, to say nothing of Galatians. The situation of the apostle implied in the letters. Paul's situation as envisaged in the Pastorals can in no way be fitted into any reconstruction of Paul's life and work as we know it from the other letters or can deduce it from the Acts of the Apostles. If Paul wrote these letters, then he must have been released from his first Roman imprisonment and have traveled in the West. But such meager tradition as we have seems to be more a deduction of what must have happened from his plans as detailed in Romans than a reflection of known historical reality. The letters as reflecting the characteristics of emergent Catholocism. The arguments presented above are forceful, but a last consideration is overwhelming, namely that, together with 2 Peter, the Pastorals are of all the texts in the New Testament the most distinctive representatives of the emphases of emergent Catholocism. The apostle Paul could no more have written the Pastorals than the apostle Peter could have written 2 Peter. Kap
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archaeologist Inactive Member |
The meaning of 2 Tim 3:16 is ambiguous in the Greek because the "is" is not found in Greek. having studied ancient greek and knowing the rules of translation, i will refrain from answering this and let Jamison Faucett and Brown do the talking instead:
16. All scripture Greek, Every Scripture, that is, Scripture in its every part. However, English Version is sustained, though the Greek article be wanting, by the technical use of the term Scripture being so well known as not to need the article (compare Greek, Ephesians 3:15 936 2:21). The Greek is never used of writings in general, but only of the sacred Scriptures. The position of the two Greek adjectives closely united by and, forbids our taking the one as an epithet, the other as predicated and translated as ALFORD and ELLICOTT. Every Scripture given by inspiration of God is also profitable. Vulgate and the best manuscripts, favor English Version. Clearly the adjectives are so closely connected that as surely as one is a predicate, the other must be so too. ALFORD admits his translation to be harsh, though legitimate. It is better with English Version to take it in a construction legitimate, and at the same time not harsh. The Greek, God-inspired, is found nowhere else. Most of the New Testament books were written when Paul wrote this his latest Epistle: so he includes in the clause All Scripture is God-inspired, not only the Old Testament, in which alone Timothy was taught when a child (<550315>2 Timothy 3:15), but the New Testament books according as they were recognized in the churches which had men gifted with discerning of spirits, and so able to distinguish really inspired utterances, persons, and so their writings from spurious. Paul means, All Scripture is Godinspired and therefore useful; because we see no utility in any words or portion of it, it does not follow it is not God-inspired. It is useful, because God-inspired; not God-inspired, because useful. One reason for the article not being before the Greek, Scripture, may be that, if it had, it might be supposed that it limited the sense to the hiera grammata, Holy Scriptures (<550315>2 Timothy 3:15) of the Old Testament, whereas here the assertion is more general: all Scripture (compare Greek, <610120>2 Peter 1:20). The translation, all Scripture that is God-inspired is also useful, would imply that there is some Scripture which is not God-inspired. But this would exclude the appropriated sense of the word Scripture; and who would need to be told that all divine Scripture is useful (‘profitable’)? <580413>Hebrews 4:13 would, in ALFORD’S view, have to be rendered, All naked things are also open to the eyes of Him, etc.: so also <540404>1 Timothy 4:4, which would be absurd [TREGELLES, Remarks on the Prophetic Visions of the Book of Daniel]. Knapp well defines inspiration, An extraordinary divine agency upon teachers while giving instruction, whether oral or written, by which they were taught how and what they should speak or write (compare 2 Samuel 23:1 <440425>Acts 4:25 <610121>2 Peter 1:21). The inspiration gives the divine sanction to all the words of Scripture, though those words be the utterances of the individual writer, 937 and only in special cases revealed directly by God (<460213>1 Corinthians 2:13). Inspiration is here predicated of the writings, all Scripture, not of the persons. The question is not how God has done it; it is as to the word, not the men who wrote it. What we must believe is that He has done it, and that all the sacred writings are every where inspired, though not all alike matter of special revelation: and that even the very words are stamped with divine sanction, as Jesus used them (for example in the temptation and <431034>John 10:34,35), for deciding all questions of doctrine and practice. There are degrees of revelation in Scripture, but not of inspiration. The sacred writers did not even always know the full significancy of their own God-inspired words (<600110>1 Peter 1:10,11,12). Verbal inspiration does not mean mechanical dictation, but all Scripture is (so) inspired by God, that everything in it, its narratives, prophecies, citations, the whole ideas, phrases, and words are such as He saw fit to be there. The present condition of the text is no ground for concluding against the original text being inspired, but is a reason why we should use all critical diligence to restore the original inspired text. Again, inspiration may be accompanied by revelation or not, but it is as much needed for writing known doctrines or facts authoritatively, as for communicating new truths [TREGELLES]. The omission here of the substantive verb is,’ I think, designed to mark that, not only the Scripture then existing, but what was still to be written till the canon should be completed, is included as God-inspired. Timothy was written in early-mid 2nd century (mid 1st according to Christian stories though) But the NT did not exist as a collection until 4th century...Timothy is a forged letter wrong and unsupported.anyone can make unsubstantiated charges like that, it is another thing to be able to prove it true. They were not included in Marcion's canon of ten epistles assembled c. 140 CE. Against Wallace, there is no certain quotation of these epistles before Irenaeus c. 170 CE. marcion was a false teacher and edited the scriptures to fit his ideas{latourette:vol1:125-8,133} irenaeus doesn't have to quote something for it to be legitmate, original and scripture. the rest of that post i would need to read more of but their reasonings are minor and off base with unrealistic ideas.
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archaeologist Inactive Member |
yet where does the Bible teach that the 'unicorn' is a one horned horse? there were and are other one horned animals in existance.
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archaeologist Inactive Member |
So which of the dozens of English translations is it that preserves these "original words?" And how are these "original words" the same in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, and English as well as in Turkish, Tagalog, and Tahitian? Are you telling me that ALL of those "preserve" the precise same meaning of "emerod" or "unicorn?" And those two are just the easy nouns.......
read the book, The Peace Child' it is about a missionary who went to papua new quinea and worked with cannibals. they had a concept of a peace child, where one tribe gave their baby to another for lasting peace...that concept translates quite well with Christ who brings peace to the soul and was a baby once. so the truth is preserved. but i feel you are trying to be literal when it benefits you thus anything i say will fall on deaf ears.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2322 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
archaeologist writes:
Yes, and they are not called unicorns. yet where does the Bible teach that the 'unicorn' is a one horned horse? there were and are other one horned animals in existance. Edited by Huntard, : did quote wrong
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AdminPD Inactive Administrator |
Per the Forum Guidelines.
Rule #7 - Never include material not your own without attribution to the original source. When quoting something from an online source, please provide a link to that source. If the quote is from a book you own, please provide the standard form for referencing books. This allows participants to check your quote. In situations like this it is better to make the point of the paragraph in your own words and bring a short quote into the post with a link to the site of the information if it is online. This quote looks like it came from the Biblos.com site. Please edit your post and add a link to the source information or appropriate referencing if it is a book you own.
Please direct any comments concerning this Administrative msg to the Report discussion problems here: No.2 thread. Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour suspension. Thank youAdminPD
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 828 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
So an ox is a one horned animal?
In majesty he is like a firstborn bull; his horns are the horns of a wild ox. With them he will gore the nations, even those at the ends of the earth. Such are the ten thousands of Ephraim; such are the thousands of Manasseh." "Will the wild ox consent to serve you? Will he stay by your manger at night? Rescue me from the mouth of the lions; save me from the horns of the wild oxen. Your god believes in Unicorns
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
having studied ancient greek and knowing the rules of translation, i will refrain from answering this and let Jamison Faucett and Brown do the talking instead: Since you have studied ancient Greek and know all of the rules, why don't you put something in your own words explaining this. BTW, we are still waiting for the reference for this cut and paste. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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archaeologist Inactive Member |
When some legitimate evidence is shown, I 'll look at it. As for listening, how can I listen to something that was said between 2000 & 5000 years ago? because the truth never changes. what was true 5,000 or 2,000 years ago is still the truth today regardless of what secular scientists claim or change.
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