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Author Topic:   Moral high ground
Dirk
Member (Idle past 4024 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 31 of 318 (644664)
12-19-2011 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by purpledawn
12-19-2011 7:44 PM


Re: I have some data from the Bible to put on the table
The problem with your list of "non-religious" deaths is that in most - if not all - cases, atheism was not the reason, or even the excuse, to kill these people. However, the people killed during the Crusades were killed because of their religion (or at least religion was used as the excuse to hide the underlying reason). So they are not the same thing and can therefore not be compared. For that, you need to find people who were killed in the name of atheism, and not just by atheists for some other reason.
Edited by Dirk, : No reason given.
Edited by Dirk, : No reason given.
Edited by Dirk, : No reason given.
Edited by Dirk, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 4422 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


(2)
Message 32 of 318 (644673)
12-19-2011 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by purpledawn
12-19-2011 7:44 PM


Re: I have some data from the Bible to put on the table
Purple Dawn,
Did you feel any shame whatsoever when you decided to post that bullshit?
I have two big problems with your post.
1. When I read it, I wondered what historical source would have been so biased and ignorant of the actual facts.
Then i checked your source - it was a blog. A fucking blog??? That is your source?
When using a source that may contain no actual facts it is a good idea to see if it is possible that the author may be biased.
The first line of that blog post begins...
Whenever I am evangelizing to non-Christians...
Your information is bullshit for a large number of reasons.
Frako covered the connection between Christianity and the Nazis quite well in Message 13. Would you care to have a stab at actually debating those facts. Notice Frako's sources, including primary sources like actual physical objects and texts written by the regimes leader as well as scripts from his speeches?
The other regimes mention deserve enough respect for a slab of wiki only -
1932-1933 — Holodomor
quote:
The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомор, 'Морити голодом', literal translation Killing by hunger) was a man-made famine in the Ukrainian SSR between 1932 and 1933. During the famine, which is also known as the "terror-famine in Ukraine" and "famine-genocide in Ukraine",[1][2][3] millions of Ukrainians died of starvation in a peacetime catastrophe unprecedented in the history of Ukraine.[4]
Early estimates of the death toll by scholars and government officials varied greatly; anywhere from 1.8[5] to 12 million[6] ethnic Ukrainians were said to have been killed as a result of the famine. Recent research has since narrowed the estimates to between 2.4[7] and 7.5[8] million. The exact number of deaths is hard to determine, due to a lack of records,[9][10] but the number increases significantly when the deaths inside heavily Ukrainian-populated Kuban are included.[11] The demographic deficit caused by unborn or unrecorded births is said to be as high as 6 million.[9] Older estimates are still often cited in political commentary.[12]
Scholars disagree on the relative importance of natural factors and bad economic policies as causes of the famine and the degree to which the destruction of the Ukrainian peasantry was premeditated on the part of Joseph Stalin.[4][13][14][15] Scholars and politicians using the word Holodomor emphasize the man-made aspects of the famine, arguing that it was genocide; some consider the resultant loss of life comparable to the Holocaust.[16] They argue that the Soviet policies were an attack on the rise of Ukrainian nationalism and therefore fall under the legal definition of genocide.[17][18][19][20][21] Other scholars argue that the Holodomor was a consequence of the economic problems associated with radical economic changes implemented during the period of Soviet industrialization.
Notice the distinct lack of religious or athiest motivation there? here is the important bit -
They argue that the Soviet policies were an attack on the rise of Ukrainian nationalism and therefore fall under the legal definition of genocide. Other scholars argue that the Holodomor was a consequence of the economic problems associated with radical economic changes implemented during the period of Soviet industrialization
1959-1962 — Great Leap Forward famine
quote:
The Great Leap Forward (simplified Chinese: 大跃进; traditional Chinese: 大躍進; pinyin: D yu jn) of the People's Republic of China (PRC) was an economic and social campaign of the Communist Party of China (CPC), reflected in planning decisions from 1958 to 1961, which aimed to use China's vast population to rapidly transform the country from an agrarian economy into a modern communist society through the process of rapid industrialization, and collectivization. Mao Zedong led the campaign based on the Theory of Productive Forces, and intensified it after being informed of the impending disaster from grain shortages.
Chief changes in the lives of rural Chinese included the introduction of a mandatory process of agricultural collectivization, which was introduced incrementally. Private farming was prohibited, and those engaged in it were labeled as counter revolutionaries and persecuted. Restrictions on rural people were enforced through public struggle sessions, and social pressure. Rural industrialization, officially a priority of the campaign, saw "its development aborted by the mistakes of the Great Leap Forward."[1]
The Great Leap ended in catastrophe, resulting in tens of millions of excess deaths.[2] Estimates of the death toll range from 18 to 46 million,[3][4][5] with estimates by demographic specialists ranging from 18 to 32.5 million.[6] Historian Frank Diktter asserts that "coercion, terror, and systematic violence were the very foundation of the Great Leap Forward" and it "motivated one of the most deadly mass killings of human history."[7]
The years of the Great Leap Forward in fact saw economic regression, with 1958 through 1961 being the only years between 1953 and 1983 in which China's economy saw negative growth. Political economist Dwight Perkins argues, "enormous amounts of investment produced only modest increases in production or none at all. In short, the Great Leap was a very expensive disaster."[8]
In subsequent conferences in 1960 and 1962, the negative effects of the Great Leap Forward were studied by the CPC, and Mao was criticized in the party conferences. Moderate Party members like Liu Shaoqi and Deng Xiaoping rose to power, and Mao was marginalized within the party, leading him to initiate the Cultural Revolution in 1966.
Notice the destict lack of religious or athiest motivation there?
Here is the important bit -
The Great Leap Forward of the People's Republic of China (PRC) was an economic and social campaign of the Communist Party of China (CPC), reflected in planning decisions from 1958 to 1961, which aimed to use China's vast population to rapidly transform the country from an agrarian economy into a modern communist society through the process of rapid industrialization, and collectivization.
quote:
aloth Sar (19 May 1925 — 15 April 1998),[1][2] better known as Pol Pot, (Khmer: ប៉ុល ពត), was a Cambodian Maoist revolutionary who led the Khmer Rouge[3] from 1963 until his death in 1998. From 1976 to 1979, he served as the Prime Minister of Democratic Kampuchea. Pol Pot became leader of Cambodia on April 17, 1975.[4] During his time in power he imposed a version of agrarian socialism, forcing urban dwellers to relocate to the countryside to work in collective farms and forced labour projects. The combined effects of forced labour, malnutrition, poor medical care, and executions resulted in the deaths of approximately 21 percent of the Cambodian population.[5] In all, an estimated 2,000,000 to 4,000,000 people died under his leadership. He also led a ruthless and ideologically driven campaign against western culture and capitalism in Cambodia.
Notice the distinct lack of religious or athiest motivation there?
Here is the important bit -
During his time in power he imposed a version of agrarian socialism, forcing urban dwellers to relocate to the countryside to work in collective farms and forced labour projects. The combined effects of forced labour, malnutrition, poor medical care, and executions resulted in the deaths of approximately 21 percent of the Cambodian population.
your comment -
I don't know if these numbers are right or not and I don't plan on checking, but I think there's record of enough deaths in reality without going to stories.
That is very common for your side. You present information from an obviously biased source. You present information that you neither know, nor care if it is accurate. And you expect this to somehow support your arguement?
the second problem I have with your post is -
You don't have any data from the Bible. The Bible passages you refer to are stories. (Just because some believe they are history, doesn't make it so.) I thought you were talking about real deaths. Not deaths in stories. Do we then count all the deaths that are written of in secular stories? I think a few planets have been destroyed in the Star Trek series. I remember some planet wide destruction in Babylon 5. Our planet has supposedly been flooded several times wiping out all life.
You are not the only Christian reading this. Many christians, including members of this forum do believe that the bible is a factual source, not stories. Not one of your team has the same version of christianity as another. It is a bit difficult to post something that aligns with a potentially infinite number of interpretations of a faith.
How the fuck is Star Trek a secular story anyway?
Are you suggesting that there are people out there who believe the Star Trek and babylon 5 universe is actually real?
Many people of your faith believe that the Bible is true. You would have to believe that at least some of it is true or you would not be a christian. I do not think that there are any people that believe that the Star Trek or Babylon 5 universe exists.
Have another go, without the bullshit this time.
Edited by Butterflytyrant, : No reason given.

I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong
Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot
"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson
2011 leading candidate for the EvC Forum Don Quixote award

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by purpledawn, posted 12-19-2011 7:44 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by purpledawn, posted 12-20-2011 7:27 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 33 of 318 (644675)
12-19-2011 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by purpledawn
12-19-2011 7:44 PM


Taiping Rebellion, ad infinitum
purpledawn writes:
Deaths caused by the Religious
1562-1598 — French Wars of Religion — France — 4 million
1095-1291 — Crusades to the Holy Land — Middle East, Spain, Africa — 1.5 million (This does include all sides of the conflict)
1184-c. 1860 — Various Christian Inquisitions — Europe — 17,500
184-205 — Yellow Scarves Rebellion (Taoists) — China — 7 million
1300s-1521 — Human Sacrifices (Aztecs) — Mexico — 1 million
1855-1877 — Panthay Rebellion (Muslims) — China — 12 million
1971 — Bangladesh Atrocities (Islamists) — East Pakistan — 3 million
September 11, 2007 — Terrorist attacks (Muslim Jihadists) — USA — 5,000
Deaths caused by the Non-Religious
1932-1933 — Holodomor (communist atheists) — Ukraine — 10 million
1941-1945 — Nazi Genocides (statist atheists) — Germany — 11 million
1959-1962 — Great Leap Forward famine (communist atheists) — China — 43 million
1975-1979 — Khmer Rouge Repression (communist atheists) — Cambodia — 3 million
You forgot the Taiping Rebellion, no biggie, everyone seems to forget the Taiping Rebellion for some reason.
Only killed 20 million at least, number 5 in all deaths caused by war, obviously influenced by Hong Xiuquan's interpretation of the work of Christian Missionaries.
And obviously always conveniently forgotten by virtually all regardless of the point they are trying to make.
What was that Santayana quote again?

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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glowby
Member
Posts: 75
From: Fox River Grove, IL
Joined: 05-29-2010


Message 34 of 318 (644677)
12-19-2011 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Butterflytyrant
12-18-2011 6:50 PM


Re: I have some data from the Bible to put on the table
Regarding the first item:
quote:
? -- Drowned everyone in the whole world except for Noah and his family (Genesis 7)
Ussher's chronology puts the flood in 2350 BC.
Wikipedia's estimates for world human population around that time are:
3000 BC - 25 million
2000 BC - 35 million
27 million victims would seem a fair estimate. (Only 26,999,992 if you deduct Noah's group.)

This message is a reply to:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 35 of 318 (644681)
12-20-2011 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Chuck77
12-19-2011 7:44 PM


Re: What is a true christian?
Ok, so GWB, who very openly and vocally supported the criminalization of homosexuality in his home state, is a christian, then?
What about the crusaders who killed every man, woman, and child who lived in Jerusalem during the first crusade?
Added by edit.
On second thought, let's forget about the crusaders. No one can really say what those guys truly believed. Let's focus more on contemporary people.
Do you think GWB is a true christian? What about Newt Gingrich? Ron Paul? Those church goers who voted to ban interracial couples from their church in Alabama a few weeks ago?
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 36 of 318 (644684)
12-20-2011 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Taz
12-19-2011 2:46 PM


Re: What is a true christian?
Taz writes:
I'm just trying to figure out what you guys would define as a true christian.
To start with, we need to ask ourselves if a human has similar traits, tendencies, shortcomings, sins, if you will...whether they are religious or not. In other words, do all humans have potentially the same potential for killing?
We seem to have case examples in History, as PD points out, that include human regimes of all religious or secular persuasions and differing religions.
Next, any Christian who is honest with themselves knows that Jesus was not some Nordic Aryan proclaiming himself as a conquering Messiah. I would assume some consensus for the character of Jesus Christ as presented in the gospel books and that a true christian would attempt to live emulating those characteristics and standards. Has Christianity been used as an excuse for ethnic cleansing and blatant capitalistic expansion? Yes. I disagree with nwr, however, that the christian belief system itself was to be blamed...except as a convenient excuse. The human nature was to be blamed and responsibility accepted.
No group of people can claim a moral high ground, for we are all human and all equal in that regard.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 37 of 318 (644686)
12-20-2011 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by purpledawn
12-19-2011 7:44 PM


Re: I have some data from the Bible to put on the table
I think the fact that the Bible stories are taken as examples of righteous genocide is relevant, even if they are not true.
quote:
I don't know if these numbers are right or not and I don't plan on checking, but I think there's record of enough deaths in reality without going to stories.
Any source that blames atheism for the Nazi Holocaust is ignorant at best. The Nazis in general weren't atheists or supporters of atheism. Germany on the other hand has a long history of Christian anti-semitism. Luther has been mentioned already, but there's more to it like "Saint" Werner of Oberwesel I think that it is fair to say that Christianity had much more to do with the Holocaust than atheism.

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Portillo
Member (Idle past 4161 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


(1)
Message 38 of 318 (644691)
12-20-2011 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Butterflytyrant
12-17-2011 11:28 PM


Lets take a few examples. Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and their henchmen, in a period of 6 decades, killed 100 million people. Pol-Pot, in a period of 3 years, killed 2 million. The Inquisition which lasted 400 years, less than 2000 were killed. The Salem Witch Trials killed 19.
quote:
I have noticed that many religious people seem to believe that they hold some sort of moral high ground. They seem to believe that because they follow the teachings of a particular faith, they automatically become superior to others when it comes to interpretation of scripture, moral and ethical judgements etc
Let me make this clear so that Im never misunderstood. I dont think I have a moral superiority to anyone. I cant speak for other Christians or other religious people. I am sick. Sick from sin and Jesus is my hospital.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Butterflytyrant, posted 12-17-2011 11:28 PM Butterflytyrant has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 82 by Butterflytyrant, posted 12-23-2011 7:31 AM Portillo has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 39 of 318 (644693)
12-20-2011 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Portillo
12-20-2011 4:32 AM


Lets take a few examples. Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and their henchmen, in a period of 6 decades, killed 100 million people. Pol-Pot, in a period of 3 years, killed 2 million. The Inquisition which lasted 400 years, less than 2000 were killed. The Salem Witch Trials killed 19.
Hold on, you seem to have a double standard here.
In the religion column, you're putting only atrocities performed with an explicitly religious motivation.
But in the atheism column, you're putting all atrocities when atheists were in charge.
This is inconsistent. You should either blame atheism only for atheism-motivated atrocities (i.e. people put to death because they wouldn't renounce theism) in which case your figures for atheism would suddenly become much much smaller ...
... or you should put in the "religion" column every atrocity when theists were in charge, in which case you should add in (for example) the 40 million people killed by the theist Genghis Khan.
You can't have it both ways.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 40 of 318 (644695)
12-20-2011 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by purpledawn
12-19-2011 7:44 PM


Re: I have some data from the Bible to put on the table
And the same applies to you, too.
In "deaths caused by the non-religious", you include, in conformity with your headline, deaths caused by the non-religious* for whatever reason.
But in "deaths caused by the religious" you only include deaths caused by the religious for religious motives. You include the Crusades but not World War I, in spite of the fact that both sides consisted of Christian nations with Christian leaders (oh, and the Turks, who were Muslims).
Again, I would ask for a little consistency. Either you should say that (for example) the Holdomor was not a crusade for atheism, so it shouldn't be counted against atheists, or you should say that WWI was run by theists and so should be counted against them.
* Apart from the Holocaust, where you're just plain wrong.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by purpledawn, posted 12-19-2011 7:44 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by purpledawn, posted 12-20-2011 6:51 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 41 of 318 (644697)
12-20-2011 5:40 AM


As well as correcting for relative population sizes and efficiency of weaponry over time, we should also consider correcting for belief system.
We could start by making an assumption that all Stalin's top executive ranks were rabid atheists intent on nothing other than eradicating religion from their countrymen. So maybe that's a hundred people? We could then assume that the remainder of his top staffers have a normal distribution of belief and non-belief and are just following orders.
How can we then allocate individual killings between atheist and believers? I suppose a start would be to say that the distribution of atheists amongst the Russian population would be about what it is on average today - say 10% - and that apart from the top dogs, that distribution will apply to his admin staff and military and civil security forces. So a start would be to say that around 90% of the deaths were down to believers following orders.
We could then argue for relative blame, maybe add a correction factor for relative culpability dependant on distance from the killing decision. Perhaps we could use political and military rank as a proxy, then weight accordingly?
Or we could just say that this whole argument is a crock of shit as no-one fights and dies for atheism. Communism and psychotic totalitarianism was the cause.

Life, don't talk to me about life.

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 42 of 318 (644699)
12-20-2011 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Dr Adequate
12-20-2011 4:55 AM


Deaths
I didn't look into the reasoning for each war. You can move them around as you wish.
The point of my post was that there are plenty of real deaths to tally up without resorting to stories.
Necrometrics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-20-2011 4:55 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-20-2011 7:03 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 43 of 318 (644702)
12-20-2011 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by purpledawn
12-20-2011 6:51 AM


Re: Deaths
I didn't look into the reasoning for each war.
And yet that is, perhaps unconsciously, how you tallied them --- blaming atheism for wars fought by atheists, but theism only for wars fought for theism.
The point of my post was that there are plenty of real deaths to tally up without resorting to stories.
Indeed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by purpledawn, posted 12-20-2011 6:51 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 44 of 318 (644706)
12-20-2011 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Butterflytyrant
12-19-2011 11:37 PM


Re: I have some data from the Bible to put on the table
quote:
Then i checked your source - it was a blog. A fucking blog??? That is your source?
As was your source for Bible Deaths, which at least they were looking at deaths mentioned in the Bible and not comparing it to reality.
quote:
Many people of your faith believe that the Bible is true. You would have to believe that at least some of it is true or you would not be a christian. I do not think that there are any people that believe that the Star Trek or Babylon 5 universe exists.
You are making assumptions about me personally that you have no basis for. Please argue the position and not the person.
My position is that there are plenty of real wars and skirmishes with or without religious or atheistic intent to draw from without resorting to the stories of the Bible. You can re-categorize the deaths as you see fit.
Necrometrics
The Bible is not an historical book.
My position has nothing to do with who has killed more, just didn't want you padding the numbers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Butterflytyrant, posted 12-19-2011 11:37 PM Butterflytyrant has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Butterflytyrant, posted 12-23-2011 6:35 AM purpledawn has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 45 of 318 (644721)
12-20-2011 10:15 AM


Genocide is more than just killing.
Genocide is more than just killing folk, it is the intentional destruction of a people, a culture, a religion or religious group or a Nation.
There, Christianity has been remarkably efficient and effective as has the US.
All of the territory that is the US today was taken by genocide as well as all of South America, and in both cases one of the dominate tools used was Christianity and the forced imposition of Western Christianity to replace whatever cultures, religions, national identities that existed.
And in addition there is a very strong movement particularly within US Christianity today to continue such Genocide and make the US a Christian Theocracy governed by Christian Law.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2011 10:18 AM jar has replied

  
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