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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 436 of 5179 (684690)
12-18-2012 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 434 by crashfrog
12-18-2012 12:43 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
I guess, except for all the cases I googled where the homeowner who assaulted a burglar got a longer, harsher sentence than the invader he'd assaulted.
...and you don't think that news sources that would turn up on a Google search would specifically select for "outrages" like that, while cases where the burglar received an appropriate sentence and the homeowner was never even charged would never even make the news for you to find in a search?
The words "confirmation bias" spring to mind.
That's the issue, here. Not that homeowners aren't afforded equal protection under your law, but that criminals are. The notion that criminals have a right to safety, to not being assaulted, as they invade homes and put others at risk is insane. It's the insane notion that criminals should be expected to bear the physical risk of their crimes.
Apparently you believe that a criminal forfeits his life the moment he commits a crime. Or that criminals stop being human beings. Tell me, crash, why do we not execute thieves?

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 434 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 12:43 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 441 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 1:03 PM Rahvin has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 437 of 5179 (684691)
12-18-2012 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 423 by Theodoric
12-18-2012 12:06 PM


Another Bump for Crash
Theo writes:
crash writes:
In fact, you're a lot less likely to survive a home invasion in the UK than in the US.
Please show the stats and your reasoning.
You know all you are doing is a version of a Gish Gallop.
Quit flinging shit and back it up.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by Theodoric, posted 12-18-2012 12:06 PM Theodoric has not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 438 of 5179 (684692)
12-18-2012 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 434 by crashfrog
12-18-2012 12:43 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
Crashfrog writes:
Well, yes. For instance you protect criminals in the act of crimes.
That's the issue, here. Not that homeowners aren't afforded equal protection under your law, but that criminals are. The notion that criminals have a right to safety, to not being assaulted, as they invade homes and put others at risk is insane. It's the insane notion that criminals should be expected to bear the physical risk of their crimes.
Try to concentrate, just for a moment and stop deliberately misinterpreting what you are told. You're a clever guy, get a grip of yourself.
In the UK we try to protect everyone as best we can all the time. That includes criminals.
That does NOT mean that a criminal has a right to 'safety' when 'invading' a home. It does not mean that they are protected from violence - even extreme, fatal violence if the invade a home.
The law is clear on this - a person can defend himself and his property using all reasonable force. If he fears for his life he is allowed to take a life - it's that simple.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 434 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 12:43 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 442 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 1:05 PM Tangle has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(2)
Message 439 of 5179 (684693)
12-18-2012 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 404 by crashfrog
12-18-2012 9:59 AM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
Crashfrog writes:
Look, Panda, I get it; you're as proud of your country as I am of mine.
A baseless claim for your first sentence.
Not a good start.
Crashfrog writes:
Maybe your conviction that I'm irrationally ignoring evidence out of nationalistic fervor - and let's be honest, that's what you believe
If you being honest is you saying something that is untrue, then your need to try harder.
Anyway...
Crashfrog writes:
Panda writes:
It does.
*blatantly unable to show why it doesn't*
Australia banned guns and gun deaths went down dramatically.
You have not shown otherwise.
Do you think that a gun ban would produce an instant reduction?
I think it would take several years at least.
How long do you think it should take?
(I realise that you have a history of not answering questions - but repeatedly asking them makes that more obvious to others.)
...and still no link to a burglar being paid compensation. I'll add that to the list of your baseless claims.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 9:59 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 446 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 1:13 PM Panda has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 440 of 5179 (684694)
12-18-2012 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 430 by Rahvin
12-18-2012 12:25 PM


Re: And so the pendulum swings again.
It is orders of magnitude easier to produce drugs than it is to manufacture firearms and ammunition.
That's absurdly untrue. You can (and many do) manufacture a firearm and ammunition in a basement, with simple hand tools; while some drugs grow out of the grown with minimal processing, most drugs require advanced chemical processing before they're ready for distribution. Many drug labs rival professional pharmaceutical factories in scale and sophistication.
Firearms and ammunition require far more specialized materials.
They don't and never have; that's why firearms technology was invented in the 1600's and crack wasn't invented until 1980.
But reducing the legal availability makes it more difficult to acquire guns and ammo...
Just as reducing the legal availability of drugs made it more difficult to acquire drugs. But was society improved as a result? Did people use less drugs, or did they try harder to get drugs?
Nobody here has even once suggested that we should pattern a firearms ban on the "war on drugs."
In fact, everybody suggesting tighter gun controls has suggested using exactly that, using policies and enforcement mechanisms exactly like those for drugs.
We don;t need those kinds of searches, and we don't need "zero tolerance" or mandatory sentencing.
We already have them. I haven't heard you or anyone else advocate that we should end zero-tolerance policies for guns; if you oppose them, this is the first I'm hearing of it. And I guess I'd like you to clarify your new anti-zero-tolerance position. For instance, how many guns should someone be able to carry into a school?
You do know that most of the guns in Mexico come from the US, right?
I do know that, but the guns in Mexico are in Mexico. That's what it means to be in Mexico.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by Rahvin, posted 12-18-2012 12:25 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 471 by Panda, posted 12-18-2012 1:47 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 441 of 5179 (684695)
12-18-2012 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 436 by Rahvin
12-18-2012 12:52 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
...and you don't think that news sources that would turn up on a Google search would specifically select for "outrages" like that, while cases where the burglar received an appropriate sentence and the homeowner was never even charged would never even make the news for you to find in a search?
Who cares about those? The point was that it was easy to find examples of what you said wasn't happening. Geez, I'm sure it's the case that not 100% of your courts are insane, just as not 100% of Americans are rootin'-tootin' pistoleros.
Apparently you believe that a criminal forfeits his life the moment he commits a crime.
I believe that criminals should bear the physical risks of their crime, not their victims. Your notion that there's a societal interest in protecting the lives of burglars as they menace the occupants of the homes they invade is absolutely insane. Why should a burglar be allowed to put my life at risk as a result of his crime? It's absurd. Insane.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by Rahvin, posted 12-18-2012 12:52 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 444 by Theodoric, posted 12-18-2012 1:11 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 442 of 5179 (684696)
12-18-2012 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 438 by Tangle
12-18-2012 12:56 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
In the UK we try to protect everyone as best we can all the time. That includes criminals.
Yes, insanely. But yes I absolutely agree that this is true.
And because this is true - and try to pay attention, this is the important part - home invasion burglars know that, in the UK, they're safer when they invade a home with the occupants present than they are in other countries.
That's why, in your country, the rate of home invasion burglaries where the occupants are present is four times higher.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 438 by Tangle, posted 12-18-2012 12:56 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 461 by Tangle, posted 12-18-2012 1:34 PM crashfrog has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 443 of 5179 (684698)
12-18-2012 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by New Cat's Eye
12-17-2012 3:42 PM


Hi CS, I see you added to the message later:
Catholic Scientist writes:
I'm still missing the irony... He asked why I wouldn't go for a full-auto for killing people. Then he asked why grenades shouldn't be at WalMart. I don't think full-autos should be at WalMart either. You're trying awefully hard to make me look stupid.
Sorry, wasn't trying to make you look stupid. If you don't see the irony then you don't see the irony, but it had nothing to do with grenades at WalMart. I explained what was ironic, you quoted it in your message, no grenades, no WalMart: "Your blas attitude combined with the thought of a device that could wreck your house while not being destructive was just too ironic to pass by without comment."
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2012 3:42 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 444 of 5179 (684699)
12-18-2012 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 441 by crashfrog
12-18-2012 1:03 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
Why should a burglar be allowed to put my life at risk as a result of his crime? It's absurd. Insane.
Why should you be allowed to execute someone for breaking into your house?
The police are not allowed to execute the burglar, why should you?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 441 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 1:03 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 447 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 1:14 PM Theodoric has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 445 of 5179 (684700)
12-18-2012 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 389 by crashfrog
12-18-2012 8:11 AM


crashfrog writes:
But they haven't been. They've been increasing, even as the national gun ownership rate has been in decline.
Yes, I believe I've heard that, though I haven't been able to verify it myself. The best I could come up with just now was this graph:
It's from a 2011 Gallup article titled Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993
Anyway, if gun ownership is actually declining then do you have the data for that? Is it significant compared with gun ownership rates in countries we've been comparing to the US?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 8:11 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 449 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 1:16 PM Percy has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 446 of 5179 (684701)
12-18-2012 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 439 by Panda
12-18-2012 12:57 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
*blatantly unable to show why it doesn't*
I don't recognize this text from my post, but you attribute it to me. Can you show me where I made this remark?
ustralia banned guns and gun deaths went down dramatically.
You have not shown otherwise.
No, in fact Australia's gun ban had almost no effect on the rate of gun deaths:
Like other countries, Australia succeeded in preserving a low rate of firearms ownership and homicide, but the bans did nothing. Gun deaths in Australia were already on the decline, and they didn't decline any faster as a result of their guns ban.
Do you think that a gun ban would produce an instant reduction?
Of course it should be immediate, if your position is that illegal things are harder to get.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by Panda, posted 12-18-2012 12:57 PM Panda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 448 by Rahvin, posted 12-18-2012 1:15 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 451 by Percy, posted 12-18-2012 1:19 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 500 by xongsmith, posted 12-18-2012 3:18 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 447 of 5179 (684702)
12-18-2012 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 444 by Theodoric
12-18-2012 1:11 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
Why should you be allowed to execute someone for breaking into your house?
Why should their criminality be allowed to put me at risk?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by Theodoric, posted 12-18-2012 1:11 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 453 by Theodoric, posted 12-18-2012 1:20 PM crashfrog has replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 448 of 5179 (684703)
12-18-2012 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 446 by crashfrog
12-18-2012 1:13 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
Of course it should be immediate, if your position is that illegal things are harder to get.
Harder to get is not the same as harder to have in your possession.
Gun bans don't magically poof away guns. They just make them harder to get, so their numbers decrease over time.
Not immediately.
Tis has been stated multiple times in this thread.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 1:13 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 450 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 1:18 PM Rahvin has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 449 of 5179 (684704)
12-18-2012 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 445 by Percy
12-18-2012 1:13 PM


http://www.washingtonpost.com/...otings-in-the-united-states
quote:
7. Gun ownership in the United States is declining overall.
For all the attention given to America’s culture of guns, ownership of firearms is at or near all-time lows, writes political scientist Patrick Egan. The decline is most evident on the General Social Survey, though it also shows up on polling from Gallup, as you can see on this graph:
Edited by Admin, : Reduce image width. My Christmas wish: Crash starts using the [thumb] dBCode.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 445 by Percy, posted 12-18-2012 1:13 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 452 by Rahvin, posted 12-18-2012 1:19 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 473 by Percy, posted 12-18-2012 1:51 PM crashfrog has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 450 of 5179 (684705)
12-18-2012 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 448 by Rahvin
12-18-2012 1:15 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
They just make them harder to get, so their numbers decrease over time.
Because what, they evaporate? Even if you made guns literally impossible to make, you'd still have just as many guns as you would year after year, minus the ones that, I don't know, fell down between the couch cushions or something.
Guns are a durable good. Emphasis on the durable, a lot of Americans own rifles manufactured just after the Revolutionary War. They can still be fired even to this day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 448 by Rahvin, posted 12-18-2012 1:15 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 455 by Rahvin, posted 12-18-2012 1:23 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 462 by Theodoric, posted 12-18-2012 1:38 PM crashfrog has not replied

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