Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
8 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,814 Year: 3,071/9,624 Month: 916/1,588 Week: 99/223 Day: 10/17 Hour: 6/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Moral issues and the Justice system or something like that
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 31 of 171 (873326)
03-14-2020 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Taq
03-13-2020 12:41 PM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
Jesus was teaching us a lesson about hypocrisy in the incident of the woman caught in adultery. He challenged the Jews who were ready to stone her that only the one without sin should cast the first stone. This has nothing to do with governments. Jesus never ever addressed governments except to say give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what s God's. He came to save the lost, He came to redeem individuals, He came to build the Kingdom of God, not teach governments. Scripture says clearly that governments are given by God the authority to deal with criminals, that without any mention of any further teaching needed.
And we are not to use any part of scripture to overturn any other part of scripture. The only time Jesus did anything even mildly like that He didn't change anything, He merely emphasized the strictness of the Law that Moses had loosened for divorce. When He told us not to take a life for a life and so on He was addressing individuals who would be tempted to take vengeance. he was not addressing the state.
What God told Noah stands and is not to be overturned: Whoever takes the life of a human being is to be put to death.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Taq, posted 03-13-2020 12:41 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 03-14-2020 11:58 AM Faith has replied
 Message 57 by Taq, posted 03-16-2020 4:41 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 32 of 171 (873334)
03-14-2020 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
03-14-2020 9:55 AM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
Faith writes:
This has nothing to do with governments. Jesus never ever addressed governments except to say give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what s God's.
It certainly has to do with justice systems. Jesus was directly addressing the justice system of the Jews, in which the people carried out the verdict themselves. The clear meaning of his words was that nobody is qualified to impose a death sentence - not a lynch mob and not a judge and jury.
Faith writes:
What God told Noah stands and is not to be overturned: Whoever takes the life of a human being is to be put to death.
That is not what God told Noah.
quote:
Genesis 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
"At the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man". That is clearly not about capital punishment. Beasts are not executioners. It's a prediction of violence against man, by beasts and by other men.
Faith writes:
And we are not to use any part of scripture to overturn any other part of scripture.
Exactly. You are not allowed to use your twisted version of "what God told Noah" to overrule Jesus.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 03-14-2020 9:55 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 03-14-2020 12:41 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 33 of 171 (873335)
03-14-2020 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ringo
03-14-2020 11:58 AM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
Sorry. Jesus is God, He did not contradict the Old Testament scriptures. Period.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 03-14-2020 11:58 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 03-14-2020 12:46 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 34 of 171 (873336)
03-14-2020 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
03-14-2020 12:41 PM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
Faith writes:
Sorry. Jesus is God, He did not contradict the Old Testament scriptures. Period.
I didn't say He did. I said you contradicted Him.
God also forbade capital punishment for Cain, the first murderer - and what He said to Noah had nothing to do with capital punishment.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 03-14-2020 12:41 PM Faith has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 35 of 171 (873342)
03-14-2020 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
03-12-2020 5:12 PM


Of course, no one is wanting babies to be killed. A fetus of course, is not a baby.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 03-12-2020 5:12 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 03-15-2020 5:29 AM ramoss has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 36 of 171 (873365)
03-15-2020 5:29 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by ramoss
03-14-2020 6:25 PM


Sure, call it by another name so you can kill babies. That's all that is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by ramoss, posted 03-14-2020 6:25 PM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by frako, posted 03-15-2020 10:42 AM Faith has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 37 of 171 (873383)
03-15-2020 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Faith
03-15-2020 5:29 AM


Hosea 13:16
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
Numbers 5
And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. Otherwise, in poetic terms, it is described that she will lose the baby, by judgment of God.
Exodus 21:22-25: If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 03-15-2020 5:29 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Faith, posted 03-15-2020 11:12 AM frako has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 38 of 171 (873384)
03-15-2020 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by frako
03-15-2020 10:42 AM


And your point is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by frako, posted 03-15-2020 10:42 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by frako, posted 03-15-2020 11:18 AM Faith has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 39 of 171 (873385)
03-15-2020 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Faith
03-15-2020 11:12 AM


the bible has nothing against abortions or baby killing.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Faith, posted 03-15-2020 11:12 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Faith, posted 03-15-2020 11:24 AM frako has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 40 of 171 (873386)
03-15-2020 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by frako
03-15-2020 11:18 AM


The first example is of God's judgment, nothing to do with anything like abortion.
The second one doesn't seem to me to suggest the woman lost a baby, it's about her acceptability into Israel if I'm remembering the context correctly. If not please correct. If she's acceptable she will bear seed to an Israelite husband is how I read it.
The third prescribes the punishment to be meted out by the husband of a woman who lost their baby because of violence against her. How is that having nothing against the loss of a baby in the womb?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by frako, posted 03-15-2020 11:18 AM frako has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 03-16-2020 11:40 AM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 41 of 171 (873497)
03-16-2020 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Faith
03-15-2020 11:24 AM


Faith writes:
The third prescribes the punishment to be meted out by the husband of a woman who lost their baby because of violence against her. How is that having nothing against the loss of a baby in the womb?
It shows that the fetus was considered the property of the husband. Killing it was like killing his ox. It was not considered murder.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Faith, posted 03-15-2020 11:24 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 03-16-2020 11:51 AM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 42 of 171 (873498)
03-16-2020 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by ringo
03-16-2020 11:40 AM


The OT doesn't regard killing the fetus as murder but it does regard it as a child. Which we know from other scriptures about God's knowing us in the womb and so on. And yes it was property, that doesn't make it less human.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 03-16-2020 11:40 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 03-16-2020 12:04 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 03-16-2020 12:13 PM Faith has replied
 Message 58 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-16-2020 5:31 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 43 of 171 (873503)
03-16-2020 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Faith
03-16-2020 11:51 AM


Nonsense Faith. Even when a boy was born it was not seen as a human until it had lived for ten days. Only then was it given a name and a pain.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 03-16-2020 11:51 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 44 of 171 (873505)
03-16-2020 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Faith
03-16-2020 11:51 AM


Faith writes:
The OT doesn't regard killing the fetus as murder but it does regard it as a child.
Chapter and verse?
It was okay to kill a rebellious son:
quote:
Deuteronomy 21:18-20 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
At least he got a trial. Note that it doesn't say "child", it says "son", presumably of any age. Also, contrast with Jesus' prodigal son story.
Faith writes:
Which we know from other scriptures about God's knowing us in the womb and so on.
quote:
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee....
That's before we were in the womb. He knew our atoms. It has nothing to do with abortion.
Faith writes:
And yes it was property, that doesn't make it less human.
Of course it does. Property is not human. Humans are not property.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 03-16-2020 11:51 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 03-16-2020 12:22 PM ringo has replied
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 03-16-2020 12:24 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 45 of 171 (873508)
03-16-2020 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ringo
03-16-2020 12:13 PM


Please learn to tell the difference between the innocent and the guilty. I know it's hard but try. And the son in the example is generally understood to be a grown son, not a child. Like the priest Eli's grown sons who were considered by God to be Eli's responsibility.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 03-16-2020 12:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 03-16-2020 12:29 PM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024