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Author Topic:   The slickest con ever perpetrated on mankind
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 46 of 59 (663149)
05-21-2012 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Coyote
05-15-2012 10:07 PM


I think you're overestimating how much intentionality the shamans had.
In the past mankind was very limited in his understanding of his surroundings, and felt powerless to affect his destiny. Because of this helplessness, any hope or chance of affecting his surroundings was eagerly seized upon, whether it was hunting magic, attempts to control the weather, solstice and equinox ceremonies, healing rituals or what have you.
You say "seized upon" as if they were just sitting back waiting for just the right blend of discovery and ignorance to sink their teeth into. But they were a product of their cultures as well and would have had just as much ignorance.
Do you think some native american hid away and concocted a scheme to trick the other folks into believing his magic dance caused the rain? Or would you accept that its more likely the behavior emerged gradually over multiple shamans that unintentionally mistook correlation for causation?
And into this environment emerged the shamans (of all kinds) who opportunistically promised to fix things, to lure animals to the hunters, control the weather, provide the proper solstice and equinox ceremonies, heal the sick and so on. This is the origin of the "alternate realities" of which you write, brought to us by shamans.
How do you know it was opportunistically rather than, say, reluctantly? If the old shamans are adopting the new shamans then its harldy the new shamans fault.
But the slickest con ever perpetrated on mankind was the one put forth by those shamans promising eternal life.
How long down the long line of shamans did it take for them to start getting to this promise? If you look at it as some kind of memetic emergence, I don't see how it can rightfully be called a "con". Especially if they didn't do it on purpose and have been lead to believe their own hype.
If it turns out that one of your archeological finds was wrong, I wouldn't say you had pulled a con unless you deliberately tried to trick people.
In any other field of human endeavor such behavior would end up with the ones making those grandiose promises in jail or worse. Only in the realm of religion do the shamans (of all kinds) get a free pass to make the most outrageous promises, and profit thereby, while providing no evidence that they can deliver on their promises.
In law, you're innocent until proven guilty. You can't falsify their claims to establish guilt.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Coyote, posted 05-15-2012 10:07 PM Coyote has not replied

  
shadow71
Member (Idle past 2933 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 47 of 59 (663267)
05-22-2012 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Coyote
05-20-2012 5:56 PM


Re: Thanks for the reply, but...
Coyote writes:
OK, if you don't like the terms "shaman" and "slickest con" perhaps we can change it for you to better convey my intended meaning.
How about the promise of an afterlife as made by "religious practitioners" is the most "egregious swindle" ever perpetrated on mankind?
I'm not referring to the actions of a few crooked shamans/priests/etc. but rather the entire concept of religion as put forward by self-appointed religious practitioners, accompanied by unsubstantiated claims of being able to grease the way for their customers into a favorable afterlife--for a price.
Hi Coyote. In message 30 I asked if you beleived Jesus was a Shaman.
Would like an answer, since it is difficult to post in this thead w/o your opinion on this question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Coyote, posted 05-20-2012 5:56 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Coyote, posted 05-22-2012 7:17 PM shadow71 has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 48 of 59 (663268)
05-22-2012 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by shadow71
05-22-2012 7:05 PM


Re: Thanks for the reply, but...
I asked if you beleived Jesus was a Shaman.
From Wiki: "Shamanism is a term used in a variety of anthropological, historical and popular contexts to refer to certain magico-religious practices that involve a practitioner reaching altered states of consciousness in order to encounter and interact with the spirit world. A shaman is a person regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of benevolent and malevolent spirits, who typically enters a trance state during a ritual, and practices divination and healing. The exact definition and use of the term "shamanism" has been highly debated by scholars, with no clear consensus on the issue."
I used the term "shaman" to emphasize the historical tradition of religious practitioners extending from the prehistoric times to the present. I admit I used it in a broader fashion than is usual, but I did that in order to emphasize my point. Altered states are no longer as common in our society as in the past, but the overall tradition of interacting with the spirit world remains a defining characteristic.
However, if you want to be technical, fasting in the desert for 40 days and nights would almost certainly lead to an altered state of consciousness.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 49 of 59 (663269)
05-22-2012 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Coyote
05-22-2012 7:17 PM


Re: Thanks for the reply, but...
However, if you want to be technical, fasting in the desert for 40 days and nights would almost certainly lead to an altered state of consciousness.
Almost certainly even though fasting as practiced at the time and particularly within the Hebrew Tribes was more a dawn to dusk fast where only water was consumed during the day but a good meal in the morning and a good meal after sunset.
I would say that his followers certainly saw Jesus as a shaman.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by shadow71, posted 05-22-2012 7:54 PM jar has replied

  
shadow71
Member (Idle past 2933 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 50 of 59 (663270)
05-22-2012 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
05-22-2012 7:32 PM


Re: Thanks for the reply, but...
coyote writes:
I'm not referring to the actions of a few crooked shamans/priests/etc. but rather the entire concept of religion as put forward by self-appointed religious practitioners, accompanied by unsubstantiated claims of being able to grease the way for their customers into a favorable afterlife--for a price.
jar writes:
I would say that his followers certainly saw Jesus as a shaman.
You seem to be accepting Coyote's definition above and in your opinion his followers saw Jesus as a Shaman. Can you cite to me some evidence where Jesus was "greasing the way of his followers into a favorable afterlife---for a "price"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 05-22-2012 7:32 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Rahvin, posted 05-22-2012 8:08 PM shadow71 has not replied
 Message 52 by jar, posted 05-22-2012 8:10 PM shadow71 has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 51 of 59 (663271)
05-22-2012 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by shadow71
05-22-2012 7:54 PM


Re: Thanks for the reply, but...
John 14:6
quote:
Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.
Translation:
"Obey me, or no Heaven for you."
Surely it shouldn't be necessary to point out something that obvious.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by shadow71, posted 05-22-2012 7:54 PM shadow71 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 52 of 59 (663272)
05-22-2012 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by shadow71
05-22-2012 7:54 PM


Re: Thanks for the reply, but...
You misrepresent what I have posted and conflate concepts and issues.
The first is whether or not Jesus was a Shaman. I don't think that there is any doubt that Jesus was seen as a traditional Shaman, someone with a particular insight and connection to the spirit world, able to oppose demons and evil spirits and to influence good or healing spirits.
The second is the "Are you saved" con. To see that in action all you need to do is listen to Christian radio, watch the televangelists, attend any one of the Christian revivals, gatherings, or festivals, visit almost any Evangelical or Fundamentalist website.
The con seems to extend even beyond promising and marketing salvation today, there are red prayer clothes marketed, blue prayer clothes marketed, prosperity prayer clothes, healing prayer clothes; and all are a protected con; there is no product liability that can be attached, no truth in advertising requirements, no oversight at all.
This is not a new phenomena; you can see it in the evolution of the Great Commission over time to create a marketable product.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by shadow71, posted 05-22-2012 7:54 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by shadow71, posted 05-22-2012 8:24 PM jar has replied

  
shadow71
Member (Idle past 2933 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


(1)
Message 53 of 59 (663273)
05-22-2012 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by jar
05-22-2012 8:10 PM


Re: Thanks for the reply, but...
jar writes:
The first is whether or not Jesus was a Shaman. I don't think that there is any doubt that Jesus was seen as a traditional Shaman, someone with a particular insight and connection to the spirit world, able to oppose demons and evil spirits and to influence good or healing spirits.
But was he doing it for material riches for himself?
jar writes:
The second is the "Are you saved" con. To see that in action all you need to do is listen to Christian radio, watch the televangelists, attend any one of the Christian revivals, gatherings, or festivals, visit almost any Evangelical or Fundamentalist website.
I agree with your 100%. In my opinion all of the televangelists et. al. who promise salvation are con persons.
All of the fundamentalist preachers who judge people and tell their followers they are going to hell are not christians.
Jesus has told us he is the judge. He has told us that we are not to judge our fellow man. that is up to God.
So in my opinion these "preachers" who promise salvation and condemn people are all con men.
I don't believe Jesus was one of those types of "Shamans".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 05-22-2012 8:10 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 54 of 59 (663275)
05-22-2012 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by shadow71
05-22-2012 8:24 PM


Re: Thanks for the reply, but...
But was he doing it for material riches for himself?
Who knows but it is totally irrelevant to the topic or thread. Look at the example mentioned above. Look at the evolution of the Great Commission over time.
All of the fundamentalist preachers who judge people and tell their followers they are going to hell are not christians.
Of course they are Christians. Being a Christian does not mean someone is not a con man or snake oil salesman.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by shadow71, posted 05-22-2012 8:24 PM shadow71 has not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 55 of 59 (663301)
05-23-2012 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Coyote
05-15-2012 10:07 PM


But the slickest con ever perpetrated on mankind was the one put forth by those shamans promising eternal life. Without a shred of evidence that they could deliver what they promised, the shamans made glowing promises of eternal life--if only people would do as they directed. Not surprisingly, this involved payments to the shamans. But what choice did the victims have? They desperately wanted what the shamans claimed to be able to deliver, and the shamans were the only game in town. They still are.
I don't think the evolution of the idea of an afterlife; nor of the idea of a clergy who can intercede for you, were ever intentional cons. The afterlife is simply trying to explain away what happens to our consciousness when people die, because we have difficulty conceiving, and sometimes a fear of, the idea that it could just stop. If you come from a non-materialist culture; as pretty much every culture once was, and you believe in concepts of a spirit, the afterlife is a natural progression.
Similarly, a clergy that can intervene is a natural evolution of the idea of the shaman class which, again, I doubt was ever an intentional con. Given that so much traditional shamanism from all over the world seems to involve the use of hallucinogenic drugs, I'm sure shamans really did believe they were contacting the spirit world. After all, ketamine and the like seem perfectly capable of making people in the 21st century believe they've found a secret way of communicating with extra-dimensional beings.
I think the issue is more that it's a system preadapted for a con, to use an evolutionary term. It wasn't set up as such, it's just remarkably easy for a cynical scammer to take advantage of the situation, and that's how you get medieval popes and televangelists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Coyote, posted 05-15-2012 10:07 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by ringo, posted 05-23-2012 12:22 PM caffeine has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 56 of 59 (663339)
05-23-2012 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by caffeine
05-23-2012 4:57 AM


caffeine writes:
I don't think the evolution of the idea of an afterlife; nor of the idea of a clergy who can intercede for you, were ever intentional cons.
My guess is that some of the first shamans were guys with a gimpy leg (or a lazy streak) who couldn't (or didn't want to) go out hunting. They said, "Hey, you know what? You guys go out hunting and I'll stay here in the nice warm cave. No, wait, hear me out. I'll stay here in the nice warm cave and I'll talk to the gods for you. I'll ask them to send some nice juicy mammoths in your direction. They're bound to feel sorry for me on account of my bad leg (bad back) and all."
The belief in spirits and/or an afterlife may have been genuine but the idea of intercession strikes me as a con from day one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by caffeine, posted 05-23-2012 4:57 AM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by caffeine, posted 05-24-2012 4:07 AM ringo has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 57 of 59 (663386)
05-24-2012 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by ringo
05-23-2012 12:22 PM


My guess is that some of the first shamans were guys with a gimpy leg (or a lazy streak) who couldn't (or didn't want to) go out hunting. They said, "Hey, you know what? You guys go out hunting and I'll stay here in the nice warm cave. No, wait, hear me out. I'll stay here in the nice warm cave and I'll talk to the gods for you. I'll ask them to send some nice juicy mammoths in your direction. They're bound to feel sorry for me on account of my bad leg (bad back) and all."
The belief in spirits and/or an afterlife may have been genuine but the idea of intercession strikes me as a con from day one.
I think you're projecting too much 21st century mentalities and ideas onto other people, without looking at the actual practice of shamanism.
Not all shamans are allowed to sit on their arses in camp while the other men go off hunting. In some modern shamanistic societies, the shaman has to take part in hunting and gathering the same as everybody else. This is particularly true in resource poor areas like the Canadian arctic, for obvious reasons. You can make an argument that they get increased status and maybe some extra resources, but the idea that they can just sit and leech off everybody is certainly not universal, and I don't think we can assume it's the origin.
Secondly, shamanism isn't always that easy. The rituals involved in initiation, and in attaining a trance state, often involve self-mutilation, enforced isolation and starvation. Starving yourself into a delirious state until you start hallucinating 'the spirit world' does not seem like the easiest way of tricking yourself to a share of the hunt.
Not all shamans are, or were, men. Some of the earliest archaeological evidence of shamans in Europe and the Middle East suggests they were more likely to be women, so skipping out of the hunt doesn't seem relevant. You could argue they were avoiding other work, I suppose, but I don't really see it as a fair assumption.
A settled priesthood who get paid from other people's work without seeming to do very much seems to have evolved out of people who had to work, and who did often unpleasant things to themselves to intercede with the spirit world. It seems much more likely to me that they genuinely believed in what they were doing than that it was all an elaborate con of dubious benefit to themselves. Perhaps, once settled societies started producing enough surplus to support a priestly class, we can start talking about cons, but even there it doesn't seem necessary. The priesthood can still be seen as a natural progression to a parasitic class, without anyone ever planning it this way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by ringo, posted 05-23-2012 12:22 PM ringo has replied

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 58 of 59 (663558)
05-25-2012 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by caffeine
05-24-2012 4:07 AM


caffeine writes:
Not all shamans are allowed to sit on their arses in camp while the other men go off hunting....
Starving yourself into a delirious state until you start hallucinating 'the spirit world' does not seem like the easiest way of tricking yourself to a share of the hunt.
I'm not suggesting that "real" sincere shamans don't exist. I'm suggesting that a con is at least as plausible for the origin. Call me cynical but I think history has had more conmen than "truth-seekers" (and truth-seekers are all too susceptible to conmen).
caffeine writes:
Perhaps, once settled societies started producing enough surplus to support a priestly class, we can start talking about cons, but even there it doesn't seem necessary.
Con games aren't "necessary" per se but they're a fact of life.
Which came first? A con to sell the Brooklyn Bridge or a real "For Sale" sign on the Brooklyn Bridge?

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 Message 57 by caffeine, posted 05-24-2012 4:07 AM caffeine has not replied

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 59 (663561)
05-25-2012 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ringo
05-25-2012 12:31 PM


You're cynical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 05-25-2012 12:31 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
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