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Author Topic:   Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings?
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 46 of 373 (594869)
12-05-2010 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Jon
12-05-2010 1:38 PM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
Jon writes:
Straggler writes:
And to instead look for signs of animal behaviour that are comparable to human behaviour in the context of religious or supernatural beliefs in the widest sense.
If this is how you plan to evidence supernatural beliefs in animals, then you will fail at the task for the simple reason that animals are not humans.
A) But humans are animals.
B) What alternative method do you suggest?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Jon, posted 12-05-2010 1:38 PM Jon has not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 373 (594917)
12-05-2010 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Straggler
12-05-2010 1:41 PM


Re: It's All Relative
Jon writes:
If this doesn't make me supernatural to my cat, what would?
Do you think the capacity to question the causes of things and invent answers requires a degree of intelligence?
A degree of inventive intelligence which cats (to my knowledge) have not demonstrated. Which humans indisputably have demonstrated (e.g. Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter) and which apes, elephants and other relatively intelligent creatures may or may not have displayed?
The latter cases being the main focus of this thread.
You are missing the point, which is that it is pretty difficult to figure out whether or not a critter believes in a 'supernatural being' if we do not know what constitutes a 'supernatural being'. As far as I can tell, one doesn't have to be overly intelligent at all to believe in supernatural things.
Reply to Message 46:
A) But humans are animals.
Huh? Animals aren't humans. This is what I said.
B) What alternative method do you suggest?
I cannot propose a method for investigating something until you tell me what you want it to investigate.
Jon

Check out Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Straggler, posted 12-05-2010 1:41 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Straggler, posted 12-05-2010 6:28 PM Jon has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 48 of 373 (594941)
12-05-2010 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Jon
12-05-2010 4:29 PM


Re: It's All Relative
Jon writes:
I cannot propose a method for investigating something until you tell me what you want it to investigate.
I want to investigate animal behaviour that is equivalent to, or comparable to, human behaviour that is known to be religious or spiritual.
If you want to go down the "define supernatural" route please do it elsewhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Jon, posted 12-05-2010 4:29 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Jon, posted 12-05-2010 9:01 PM Straggler has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 373 (594960)
12-05-2010 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Straggler
12-05-2010 6:28 PM


Re: It's All Relative
I want to investigate animal behaviour that is equivalent to, or comparable to, human behaviour that is known to be religious or spiritual.
What does that have to do with the thread title?
Jon

Check out Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Straggler, posted 12-05-2010 6:28 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Phage0070, posted 12-05-2010 11:02 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied
 Message 53 by Straggler, posted 12-06-2010 12:53 PM Jon has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 373 (594977)
12-05-2010 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Jon
12-05-2010 9:01 PM


Re: It's All Relative
Jon writes:
What does that have to do with the thread title?
Heck if I know, it sounds like he is trying to investigate if animals believe in something he is unwilling to discuss.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Jon, posted 12-05-2010 9:01 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by barbara, posted 12-06-2010 10:43 AM Phage0070 has not replied
 Message 54 by Straggler, posted 12-06-2010 1:08 PM Phage0070 has replied

barbara
Member (Idle past 4801 days)
Posts: 167
Joined: 07-19-2010


Message 51 of 373 (595031)
12-06-2010 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Phage0070
12-05-2010 11:02 PM


Re: It's All Relative
Science has not yet determined how thought processes occur to store memory in the brain let alone determine whether animals believe in supernatural entities.
This does remind me of a event that took place when I rented an apartment that was previously vacant for a few years. I felt at times there was a ghost and other friends felt it too when they came over. I then got a cat and one night she starting to hiss and growl at the closet for no reason that I could see. After that I never felt that ghost energy again.
You can call this whatever you want but to this day I wonder what that was really all about that took place.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Phage0070, posted 12-05-2010 11:02 PM Phage0070 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Panda, posted 12-06-2010 10:55 AM barbara has not replied
 Message 85 by Jon, posted 12-08-2010 5:56 PM barbara has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 52 of 373 (595032)
12-06-2010 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by barbara
12-06-2010 10:43 AM


Re: It's All Relative
barbara writes:
I then got a cat and one night she starting to hiss and growl at the closet for no reason that I could see. After that I never felt that ghost energy again.
You can call this whatever you want but to this day I wonder what that was really all about that took place.
Cat: a ghost's only natural predator.
Carbon monoxide poisoning or your cat scared away a ghost: you choose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by barbara, posted 12-06-2010 10:43 AM barbara has not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 53 of 373 (595072)
12-06-2010 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Jon
12-05-2010 9:01 PM


Re: It's All Relative
Jon writes:
Straggler writes:
I want to investigate animal behaviour that is equivalent to, or comparable to, human behaviour that is known to be religious or spiritual.
What does that have to do with the thread title?
Everything. Obviously.
Now please go away.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Jon, posted 12-05-2010 9:01 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Jon, posted 12-06-2010 2:30 PM Straggler has not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 54 of 373 (595075)
12-06-2010 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Phage0070
12-05-2010 11:02 PM


Re: It's All Relative
Phage writes:
Heck if I know, it sounds like he is trying to investigate if animals believe in something he is unwilling to discuss.
Y'know those entities of the sort that lot's of people believe exist but for which there is no objective evidence? The ones that we endlessly talk about here at EvC? The ones that this entire forum was setup largely to discuss? The type of entities that includes such things as gods, deities, ghosts, zombies, vampires, fairies, pixies, spirits, demons etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. Those things in which someone who could be accurately described as a "supernaturalist" might believe. Those are the sort of entities we are discussing.
Hopefully this makes things clear enough for you to contribute to this thread without further clarification on this issue.
But if you want to discuss the detailed meaning of the term "supernatural" further I suggest you do it here What is Supernatural? or one of the other numerous threads that explicitly discusses that issue specifically.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Phage0070, posted 12-05-2010 11:02 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Phage0070, posted 12-06-2010 1:20 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 59 by Jon, posted 12-06-2010 2:41 PM Straggler has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 373 (595081)
12-06-2010 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Straggler
12-06-2010 1:08 PM


Re: It's All Relative
Straggler writes:
Y'know those entities of the sort that lot's of people believe exist but for which there is no objective evidence?
Well thats great, but I don't expect any animals to believe in the same entities humans believe in. Or were you talking about just entities that have no objective evidence of existence? Because if that was what you meant, you are making a curious distinction between misinterpretations of evidence and whatever else you meant.
"Entities for which there is no objective evidence" could simply encompass whatever the heck cats are swatting at in the air that nobody else can see. But no, that doesn't seem to qualify for reasons which you consistently refuse to reveal.
Straggler writes:
But if you want to discuss the detailed meaning of the term "supernatural" further I suggest...
But I don't, I really don't! In the absence of a clearly defined topic I provided my own definition with the generous caveat that I was willing to substitute whatever definition you wanted to use in the context of the thread.
I don't want to debate over it, I want you to just spit it out! TELL ME! And for goodness sake stick to it, because so far you have been providing more exceptions than rules.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Straggler, posted 12-06-2010 1:08 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Jon, posted 12-06-2010 2:40 PM Phage0070 has not replied
 Message 60 by Straggler, posted 12-07-2010 4:38 PM Phage0070 has replied

frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 56 of 373 (595086)
12-06-2010 1:37 PM


Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings?
Im guessing the only way one can know for sure is to ask Koko, or any oter animal that can comunicate with humans. tough one would first haveto explain the notion of supernatural or god to them in a way that would not make them believe in it so they can offer an unbiast anwser.

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Straggler, posted 12-07-2010 4:40 PM frako has not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 373 (595092)
12-06-2010 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Straggler
12-06-2010 12:53 PM


Re: It's All Relative
The title is about animal belief in supernatural beings; you have so far been unwilling to discuss these things in any way whatsoever.
You've shoved off anyone attempting to discuss this as well.
What are you going for?
Jon

Check out Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Straggler, posted 12-06-2010 12:53 PM Straggler has not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 373 (595095)
12-06-2010 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Phage0070
12-06-2010 1:20 PM


Re: It's All Relative
I don't want to debate over it, I want you to just spit it out! TELL ME!
That really is the heart of it. No one wants to debate the definition of anything. We just want to be able to reply to Straggler on his own terms. Who wants to go 500 posts debating something back and forth to find out what they meant by something wasn't what someone else meant by something and so every contribution they've made has been, essentially, off-topic?
Jon

Check out Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Phage0070, posted 12-06-2010 1:20 PM Phage0070 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Straggler, posted 12-07-2010 4:43 PM Jon has not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 373 (595096)
12-06-2010 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Straggler
12-06-2010 1:08 PM


Re: It's All Relative
But if you want to discuss the detailed meaning of the term "supernatural" further I suggest you do it here What is Supernatural? or one of the other numerous threads that explicitly discusses that issue specifically.
The existence of those threads should make painfully obvious the need for you to lay out what you mean when you use the term 'supernatural' to avoid the mismatch of uses that would otherwise result from everyone coming to the debate with their own meaning in mind.
Jon

Check out Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Straggler, posted 12-06-2010 1:08 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Straggler, posted 12-07-2010 4:44 PM Jon has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 60 of 373 (595244)
12-07-2010 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Phage0070
12-06-2010 1:20 PM


Re: It's All Relative
Why don't you an Jon get together and come up with a definition of "supernatural" that you both agree upon and then let me know?
Phage writes:
I don't want to debate over it, I want you to just spit it out! TELL ME! And for goodness sake stick to it, because so far you have been providing more exceptions than rules.
If you have any examples of animals exhibiting behaviour that could suggest belief in supernatural beings using whatever definition of "supernatural" you think is reasonable then I would love to hear them.
If you are going to further persist in demanding that I provide you with complete definitions of words that people spend years debating the meaning of here then - Don't bother.
If you are going to supply a stupid exmaple to make some sort of point about the lack of an utterly watertight definition - Don't bother.
But if you actually have something to say about animals beliefs relevant to this thread then please for the love of god let's just hear it!!!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Phage0070, posted 12-06-2010 1:20 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Phage0070, posted 12-08-2010 2:37 AM Straggler has replied

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