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Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The difference between Florida panther and puma isn't a "basic fundamental error." The terms suggest two different breeds of cat. I don't have the time or the eyesight to research every side issue.
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DOCJ Inactive Member |
Good post but if you are living you make mistakes. FYI not referencing religous thought.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You aren't making any sense. I said the gene WASN'T lost, I said alleles are lost.
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DOCJ Inactive Member |
That's because you do not understsnd. Prove genes are lost. You can't skip this point by saying alleles are lost. The alleles are never lost because they are merely a source of reused information, like switches on a page you can read and relay to someone else.
Edited by DOCJ, : Err
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
ALLELES ARE LOST FROM A GIVEN POPULATION WHEN THE GENES ARE HOMOZYGOUS.
YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT AND THERE IS NO POINT IN CONTINUING THIS DISCUSSION WITH YOU.
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DOCJ Inactive Member |
Source?
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herebedragons Member (Idle past 879 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined: |
I have brought this up before, but I want to present it here again for your consideration. It is the technique breeders use called recombinant inbred lines (aka. RILs). If your position were true, that it only takes isolation and inbreeding for several generations to produce new species, then RILs should produce numerous new species... but they don't.
Here's how it works (this is for organisms that can self-fertilize): 1. Two parents of interest, that are usually highly heterogeneous, are interbred and grown to seed. 2. A large number of seeds are collected and planted for the next generation (this is called the F1 generation). 3. F1 plants are selfed (pollen from the same plant is used to fertilize the ovaries) and seeds from each F1 selfing are collected separately and become the F2 generation. ** This is the isolation step. From here on out, each independent line is completely isolated from the other lines. 4. F2 plants are selfed and seeds collected separately and become the F3 generation. 5. The process typically continues for 6 - 10 generations and the final generation would be knownas the Fn generation. The image below diagrams the process:
** The process also works for organisms that cannot self-fertilize. In that case siblings from each generation are crossed, as shown above. Animals can be bred in this manner and, for example, is how laboratory mice are produced. The results of this extreme inbreeding is highly homogeneous lines with inbreeding coefficients >.95 and even approaching 1.0 (an inbreeding coefficient of 1.0 would indicate an identical/clonal population). This would mean that if a F10 individual produced 1,000 seeds, the plants that grew from those would be virtually identical genetically - all 1,000 of them. There would be almost no variability in that F10 population. This would be the true "end of evolution by loss of genetic information" that you insist on. RIL populations are usually quite large, containing several hundred individuals (300 is kind of the excepted minimum population size for good statistical power), all with unique, high homogeneous genotypes. Yet none are new species, none are reproductively isolated from the others. Why? There is no more efficient method of partitioning genetic diversity than recombinant inbred lines, it is the most extreme example of isolation, inbreeding and genetic drift (which you refer to as random selection) possible. Why does it not produce new species? Hint: all the genetic material in the parents still exists in the Fn population, but is just distributed among individuals rather than being contained in a single breeding pair. It must take an addition factor to differentiate those individuals into separate species. What could that factor be... maybe m*******? (Thanks to David Jay; this is a great idea to hide letters of a word so that the person you are having a discussion with has to guess what the word might be ) I would guess you don't really see the significance of what I presented above, but it demonstrates beyond a reasonable doubt that isolation, inbreeding and genetic drift are not sufficient to produce new species. There must be another factor involved. HBD Edited by herebedragons, : changed sub-titleWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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herebedragons Member (Idle past 879 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined:
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That's because you do not understsnd. I'm pretty sure it's you that doesn't understand the difference between a gene and an allele...
The alleles are never lost because they are merely a source of reused information, like switches on a page you can read and relay to someone else. Source? HBDWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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herebedragons Member (Idle past 879 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined: |
There are 4 types of alleles and They exist inside no matter the gene. Pray tell... what are these 4 types of alleles that exist inside a gene? HBDWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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DOCJ Inactive Member |
Plants can evolve on their own. Much different than animals.😂
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Getting through that was a struggle. I'll probably have to do it again.
What I want to know right now however, is where's the selection? I don't see any selection. My whole scenario is all about selection. Isolation and inbreeding occur after selection in order to homogenize the new set of gene frequencies brought about by the selection, meaning the reduced number of individuals separated out to be the founders of a daughter population. Your scenario looks like something entirely different, but again, I may have to read it another time. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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herebedragons Member (Idle past 879 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined: |
Did you even watch the video you referenced? Not a very technical presentation, but it certainly doesn't say anything about:
The alleles contain the genes. Different sequences of alleles come together and wallah you have a gene. And obviously an allele is not a gene as 1 by itself is not a gene. And I see nothing in the video about drift... Where are you getting your information???? HBDWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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DOCJ Inactive Member |
A source. Alleles are switches that are passed down i.e. reused.
How Do Alleles Determine Traits in Genetics?
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herebedragons Member (Idle past 879 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined: |
Don't you consider drift to be "random selection"? Only one seed from each cross is used to generate the next generation. That is extreme drift, ie. "random selection".
I am pretty sure you don't view selection in the same way the rest of us do. I don't have time now to go back and dig up your statements about selection, but you have previously dismissed the roll of natural selection and put the emphasis on isolation, inbreeding and drift. Maybe you have changed positions and I missed that part of the discussion? So describe how you think the outcome of recombinant inbreeding would be different if at each step you grew up 50 individuals in each line and selected from that 50 an individual for some particular characteristic (each line having a different character selected for). The end result would still be highly homozygous, inbred populations; they would just have selected characters rather random characters. How would it be different? HBDWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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DOCJ Inactive Member |
Recessive traits lead to drift.
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