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Author Topic:   TOE and the Reasons for Doubt
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5216 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 241 of 530 (528395)
10-06-2009 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by Calypsis4
10-06-2009 12:57 AM


Re: Some facts that you may not be aware of
Then why are you here? Your ideas are set in stone. You will not consider any evidence, even if it were set in front of your eyes because it contradicts the Bible. If the Bible said Paris does not exist, you would believe Paris doesn't exist even if I took you there.
You don't doubt the Theory of Evolution. You flat out don't believe it and you are unwilling to consider anything else.
You know, many Jews during the time of Jesus' life didn't believe in Jesus or his teachings either. They mocked him and said his teachings went against the holy book. Were they wrong?
If they can be wrong, couldn't you be wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Calypsis4, posted 10-06-2009 12:57 AM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Calypsis4, posted 10-06-2009 1:08 AM Izanagi has replied

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 5213 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 242 of 530 (528399)
10-06-2009 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Izanagi
10-06-2009 1:02 AM


Re: Some facts that you may not be aware of
Then why are you here? Your ideas are set in stone. You will not consider any evidence, even if it were set in front of your eyes because it contradicts the Bible.
It is because of the evidence that I reject evolution. Science is a province of God. He made it. When all things are considered science (true science!) will match what the scriptures teach because both come from Almighty God.
"You will not consider any evidence, even if it were set in front of your eyes..."
Pure prejudice. I am an ex-evolutionist. It is BECAUSE of what was set before me that I rejected evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Izanagi, posted 10-06-2009 1:02 AM Izanagi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Izanagi, posted 10-06-2009 1:24 AM Calypsis4 has replied
 Message 263 by Drosophilla, posted 10-06-2009 3:51 PM Calypsis4 has not replied

  
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5216 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 243 of 530 (528404)
10-06-2009 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Calypsis4
10-06-2009 1:08 AM


Re: Some facts that you may not be aware of
Calypsis4 writes:
It is because of the evidence that I reject evolution. Science is a province of God. He made it. When all things are considered science (true science!) will match what the scriptures teach because both come from Almighty God.
And what is this "true science" you're talking about? The Bible says the Earth is on 4 pillars. Is the Earth really on 4 pillars, and by extension, flat? The Bible says the Earth is immovable. Does that mean the Earth does not orbit the Sun? The Bible says the Earth is 5000-10000 years old. Does that mean the evidence of an older Earth that we find around us is false?
Your basis for not considering evolution is based on a book whose veracity is still unknown and is often contradictory. I don't know what kind of evidence could have been placed before you to even consider the Bible as the source of scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Calypsis4, posted 10-06-2009 1:08 AM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Calypsis4, posted 10-06-2009 1:46 AM Izanagi has replied

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 5213 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 244 of 530 (528409)
10-06-2009 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Izanagi
10-06-2009 1:24 AM


Re: Some facts that you may not be aware of
And what is this "true science" you're talking about?
The science that Isaac Newton believed in. He was a Bible believing Christian, you know. The science that Dr. Rudolph Virchow believed in. The science that Louis Agassiz believed in. The science that Dr. Henry Morris believed in (a convert from evolution). The science that Dr. Dean Kenyon believes in (another convert from evolution). The science that Dr. Lee Spetner believes in. The Science that Dr. John Sanford (Cornell U., 50 peer reviewed papers, 25 patents, and inventor of the world renowned 'biolistic gene gun') believed in. The kind of science that Werner Von Braun believed in.
Quote: " Although I know of no reference to Christ ever commenting on scientific work, I do know that He said, Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Thus I am certain that, were He among us today, Christ would encourage scientific research as modern man’s most noble striving to comprehend and admire His Father’s handiwork. The universe as revealed through scientific inquiry is the living witness that God has indeed been at work."
"When astronaut Frank Borman returned from his unforgettable Christmas, 1968, flight around the moon with Apollo 8, he was told that a Soviet Cosmonaut recently returned from a space flight had commented that he had seen neither God nor angels on his flight. Had Borman seen God? the reporter inquired. Frank Borman replied, No, I did not see Him either, but I saw His evidence.
WERNHER VON BRAUN
Vice President
Engineering and Development
Fairchild Industries
Germantown, Maryland 1976
Now, my skeptical friend, let me ask you? Why do you believe that the philosophy called 'evolution' is a science?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Izanagi, posted 10-06-2009 1:24 AM Izanagi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Izanagi, posted 10-06-2009 2:06 AM Calypsis4 has replied
 Message 246 by hooah212002, posted 10-06-2009 4:53 AM Calypsis4 has not replied
 Message 249 by Kaichos Man, posted 10-06-2009 8:42 AM Calypsis4 has replied

  
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5216 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


(1)
Message 245 of 530 (528417)
10-06-2009 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Calypsis4
10-06-2009 1:46 AM


Re: Some facts that you may not be aware of
Calypsis4 writes:
Now, my skeptical friend, let me ask you? Why do you believe that the philosophy called 'evolution' is a science?
Evolution is not a philosophy, it is a science. Science is the ever continuing search for knowledge of the natural world. Science does not set anything in stone - nothing is just because someone said so. If a better idea comes along, scientists are more than willing to consider it as long as the observations fit the new idea and the new idea came explain the natural world in ways that are testable.
Evolution explains the natural world around us. It explains why there are many variations of "kinds," the term creationists seem fond of tossing around. It explains how life went from basic organic chemicals to the complex organisms you have on this planet today. It explains the variations we see in the fossil record of extinct species and how they fit in the grand symphony of life. It shows the order behind the chaos. In other words, it enables us, lowly mortals that we are, to glimpse at a portion of the total wonder of the Universe and creation. But the best thing about evolution is that you can test it. You can look at the evidence and see if the evidence supports evolution as long as you look at the evidence objectively. And if you have an idea that objectively explains the evidence better than evolution does and is testable, then scientists will consider that new idea too.
That's why evolution is a science.
Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.
Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Calypsis4, posted 10-06-2009 1:46 AM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Calypsis4, posted 10-06-2009 9:02 AM Izanagi has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 246 of 530 (528428)
10-06-2009 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Calypsis4
10-06-2009 1:46 AM


Re: Some facts that you may not be aware of
The science that Isaac Newton believed in. He was a Bible believing Christian, you know......
Charles Darwin was a bible believing christian.
....so was Hitler.
Edited by hooah212002, : Oh noez! I invoked Godwin's Law, didn't I?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Calypsis4, posted 10-06-2009 1:46 AM Calypsis4 has not replied

  
Kaichos Man
Member (Idle past 4488 days)
Posts: 250
From: Tasmania, Australia
Joined: 10-03-2009


Message 247 of 530 (528455)
10-06-2009 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by lyx2no
10-05-2009 8:40 AM


Re: Physician, heal thyself.
I'd think the more important point here would be that if one is not competent to manipulate the math how can one believe they are competent to apply the math
Well, absolutely. And it's so easy to prove they are incompetent, isn't it? Simple problem. A one in four chance occurring 1000 times in succession.
What's the real answer, Iyx2no?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by lyx2no, posted 10-05-2009 8:40 AM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Blue Jay, posted 10-06-2009 12:01 PM Kaichos Man has replied
 Message 267 by lyx2no, posted 10-06-2009 6:00 PM Kaichos Man has replied
 Message 272 by Dr Jack, posted 10-07-2009 3:52 AM Kaichos Man has replied

  
Kaichos Man
Member (Idle past 4488 days)
Posts: 250
From: Tasmania, Australia
Joined: 10-03-2009


Message 248 of 530 (528458)
10-06-2009 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by jacortina
10-05-2009 9:11 AM


Re: Some facts that you may not be aware of
Rather than challenge well-entrenched evolutionary theory, paleontologists tacitly agreed with their zoological colleagues that the fossil record was too poor to do much beyond supporting, in a general sort of way, the basic thesis that life had evolved
Not so fast, Jacortina. I haven't apologised because it wasn't dishonest.
"Tacitly" Means silently or covertly (interesting way for scientists to behave). So what was it that paleontoligists "tacitly" agreed with zoologists? "that the fossil record was TOO POOR TO DO MUCH beyond supporting, IN A GENERAL SORT OF WAY, the BASIC thesis that life had evolved." (Emphasis mine).
That's a statement that is so laden with attenuating qualifications that it's almost unintelligible. But that's what they tacitly agreed, and you can understand why when their only other alternative was to (first part of the quote) "challenge well-entrenched evolutionary theory"
Which ever way you slice it, Jacortina, this quote is not a glowing endorsement of the fossil record as evidence for evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by jacortina, posted 10-05-2009 9:11 AM jacortina has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by jacortina, posted 10-06-2009 9:01 AM Kaichos Man has not replied

  
Kaichos Man
Member (Idle past 4488 days)
Posts: 250
From: Tasmania, Australia
Joined: 10-03-2009


Message 249 of 530 (528462)
10-06-2009 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Calypsis4
10-06-2009 1:46 AM


Re: Some facts that you may not be aware of
The Science that Dr. John Sanford (Cornell U., 50 peer reviewed papers, 25 patents, and inventor of the world renowned 'biolistic gene gun') believed in
Terrific post, brother. Have you read John Sanford's "Genetic entropy-Mysteries of the Genome?" I've read some reviews and I'm trying to get my hands on a copy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Calypsis4, posted 10-06-2009 1:46 AM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Calypsis4, posted 10-06-2009 9:11 AM Kaichos Man has not replied

  
jacortina
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 64
Joined: 08-07-2009


Message 250 of 530 (528467)
10-06-2009 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Kaichos Man
10-06-2009 8:22 AM


Re: Some facts that you may not be aware of
It was ABSOLUTELY dishonest.
Your post of the quote-mine mine was to SPECIFICALLY point out an 'evolutionist' (a 'highly credentialed' one) who didn't think the fossil record supported evolution.
You only accomplished this by a dishonest quote and leaving off a clear statement that he felt the fossil record supports evolution.
It isn't even close or the slightest bit ambiguous.
You lack even the modicum of integrity to acknowledge getting caught in a blatant act of dishonesty.
And that makes you completely worthless for any form of communication.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Kaichos Man, posted 10-06-2009 8:22 AM Kaichos Man has not replied

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 5213 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 251 of 530 (528468)
10-06-2009 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by Izanagi
10-06-2009 2:06 AM


Re: Some facts that you may not be aware of
Evolution is not a philosophy, it is a science.
No, evolution is not a 'science'. It is an interpretation of scientific fact. Biology, geology, astronomy, physics, ect. are legitimate studies of science. Evolution is not.
Now please explain why all those sightings of the volcanic activity on the moon should be ignored including all the ones sighted by Sir Wm Herschel and other astronomers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Izanagi, posted 10-06-2009 2:06 AM Izanagi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Izanagi, posted 10-06-2009 9:25 AM Calypsis4 has replied
 Message 268 by Tanndarr, posted 10-06-2009 6:55 PM Calypsis4 has not replied

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 5213 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 252 of 530 (528472)
10-06-2009 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Kaichos Man
10-06-2009 8:42 AM


Re: Some facts that you may not be aware of
Terrific post, brother. Have you read John Sanford's "Genetic entropy-Mysteries of the Genome?" I've read some reviews and I'm trying to get my hands on a copy.
I have a copy of it sitting next to me as I type. It's a terrific book. you can find it here:
http://www.otsecure.net/pssi/index.php?main_page=product_...
Sanford believed in and taught evolution for 50 yrs so his conversion (and the reasons for it) are highly disturbing to evolutionists who understand the implications. Equally disturbing to them was the conversion of Dr. Dean Kenyon, formerly of Stanford. He wrote 'Biochemical Predestination' in order to prove the chemical evolution of life on earth. But after some of his students challenged him with questions he could not answer and being given A.E. Wilders book "Mans Origin/Mans Destiny" he realized the hopelessness of his position and tossed out evolution and rejected his own book.
Evolutionists hate it when things like that happen.
This argument about lunar regression and the time factor is another explosive issue that they are confronted with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Kaichos Man, posted 10-06-2009 8:42 AM Kaichos Man has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by cavediver, posted 10-06-2009 10:01 AM Calypsis4 has not replied

  
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5216 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 253 of 530 (528475)
10-06-2009 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Calypsis4
10-06-2009 9:02 AM


Re: Some facts that you may not be aware of
Calypsis4 writes:
No, evolution is not a 'science'. It is an interpretation of scientific fact. Biology, geology, astronomy, physics, ect. are legitimate studies of science. Evolution is not.
All science is about interpreting the evidence and seeing which interpretation best fits the world around us. It involves forming hypotheses, making observations and experimenting, and continually trying to falsify theories and hypotheses.
That's why evolution is a science. It isn't a belief simply because scientists are willing to consider new data and how the Theory of Evolution interprets the new data. That's why there's a lot discourse within the scientific community about evolution - each scientist works with the data in order to determine how well the Theory of Evolution explains the data. If it turns out the Theory is ill-equipped to explain the data, then either an update of the Theory is required or a completely new theory better than evolution needs to be formed.
For instance, if tomorrow a fossil of a human skeleton with wings was found and determined to be genuine, scientists would not dismiss it out of hand. Biologists would work to determine how to interpret that new data and may even conclude that the Theory of Evolution, as it currently is, is inadequate to explain such a find, or even that evolution would need to be scrapped.
But creationists don't do that. It doesn't matter what the observational evidence shows, if the evidence violates Scripture, the evidence must be wrong. There is no discussion - Scripture is the final word. And disallowing discussion or not considering new ideas because it violates Scripture is not scientific at all.
Calypsis4 writes:
Now please explain why all those sightings of the volcanic activity on the moon should be ignored including all the ones sighted by Sir Wm Herschel and other astronomers.
I would except this is a thread about evolution, not about what is or isn't on the moon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Calypsis4, posted 10-06-2009 9:02 AM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Calypsis4, posted 10-06-2009 9:30 AM Izanagi has not replied

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 5213 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 254 of 530 (528476)
10-06-2009 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Izanagi
10-06-2009 9:25 AM


Re: Some facts that you may not be aware of
That's why evolution is a science. It isn't a belief simply because scientists are willing to consider new data and how the Theory of Evolution interprets the new data.
Evolution is not a science. I rejected it on the basis of scientific evidence against it. It isn't even close.
Forget the quote about the moon activity. I meant that for another thread.
Best wishes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Izanagi, posted 10-06-2009 9:25 AM Izanagi has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by hooah212002, posted 10-06-2009 9:50 AM Calypsis4 has not replied
 Message 257 by Coyote, posted 10-06-2009 11:15 AM Calypsis4 has not replied
 Message 318 by bluescat48, posted 10-09-2009 2:14 AM Calypsis4 has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 255 of 530 (528484)
10-06-2009 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Calypsis4
10-06-2009 9:30 AM


Re: Some facts that you may not be aware of
Evolution is not a science. I rejected it on the basis of scientific evidence against it. It isn't even close.
The more I hear stuff like this from creationists, the more it makes me think you guys have a serious guilty conscience. More and more, all the things that creationism is, is being pushed onto Evolution.
You call it a religion
You say it's not real science
You say there is evidence against it
You say there IS NO evidence
You say there is a dogma about it
You say we are close minded
(I mean you as in a "a creationist", not you in particular)
Those are things creationism is and purports, not science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Calypsis4, posted 10-06-2009 9:30 AM Calypsis4 has not replied

  
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