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Author Topic:   Christian Laws
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 286 of 392 (518051)
08-03-2009 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by purpledawn
08-03-2009 6:31 AM


Re: about the oral law
purpledawn writes:
I agree the Sadducees did not accept the oral law. We were talking about Jesus. The oral law was around at that time. Since it wasn't written down at that time, we can't know what was included at the time. All we have is what was written down concerning the oral law. Please keep on track.
I am keeping on track but i think you've missed the point i've been trying to make.
Jesus did not follow the oral law or oral tradition. I've shown you that he condemned the pharisees for putting their oral laws ahead of the mosaic law. He did not agree as his words against their oral tradition shows:
quote:
Further, he went on to say to them: "Adroitly YOU set aside the commandment of God in order to retain YOUR tradition. For example, Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Let him that reviles father or mother end up in death.' But YOU men say, 'If a man says to his father or his mother: "Whatever I have by which you may get benefit from me is corban, (that is, a gift dedicated to God,)"’” YOU men no longer let him do a single thing for his father or his mother,and thus YOU make the word of God invalid by YOUR tradition which YOU handed down. And many things similar to this YOU do." Mark 7
purpledawn writes:
Not if they believe God told them not to, which is what they believed.
it makes no sense to me that God would tell moses to write down the law, but also that he was not to write down some of it. Do you really believe that??? Most of the Jews never believed it, Jesus certainly did not believe it and he was 'The Word' of God. So if anyone knew what Gods word was, it was jesus.
purpledawn writes:
Please follow through. Yes the Book of the Law was found. Notice at the end of 2 Chronicles we have the fall of Jerusalem. Destruction, fire, theft, ... In 4 Ezra 14:21 the author notes that that law had been destroyed.
That verse you quote does not come from the bible book of Ezra. You are reading from an apocryphal book. There is a reason why the jews did not accept apocryphal writings as inspired ...they contradicted the inspired writings because they were NOT from God.
purpledawn writes:
When you change the plain text reading, you are creating your own story and changing the command. What authority do you have to change God's commands.
Quite frankly, if you can change the command(s) at your whim, it's not a law.
think about it this way. If the apostles were given the command to preach and that command was only relevant to them alone. After they died, no one would hear the kingdom message ever again.
Jesus words would have been futile. Christianity would not have continued to this day had it not been for the fact that the christians carried on the work of preaching the kingdom message.
I dont mind if you're not convinced of that, but if you think about it logically you'd have to agree that the only way for the kingdom to be preached in all the earth, is for the word to continue to spread. And the only way for that to happen is if christians continued to spread it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by purpledawn, posted 08-03-2009 6:31 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by purpledawn, posted 08-04-2009 7:06 AM Peg has not replied

  
Richh
Member (Idle past 3738 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 287 of 392 (518066)
08-03-2009 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by purpledawn
07-31-2009 6:24 PM


Re: Whats your list?
purpledawn writes:
A law: a binding custom or practice of a community : a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority.
...
A law may be a commandment, but a commandment isn't automatically a law.
I would say there is a great difference between a commandment and a law as defined in definition 1.
I agree that such a law may derive from a commandment. But a law may also derive from no commandment and there may be many commandments that do not issue in any laws. So in this sense I agree with your last statement.
Perhaps you are using 'law' in this definition 1 sense. I have not read all of the postings on this forum yet, so I'm not sure.
If you are mean definition 2, then, perhaps, there is not such a great difference between a commandment and a law. You could substitute a 'standard of morality' for a 'rule of conduct', substitute 'commanding' for 'prescribing' and apply the 'enforcement by the controlling authority' to the 'coming judgment'.
So, given that definition, it is quite easy to list many commandments.
Paul used the terms 'law' and 'commandment' interchangeably in Romans 7. His use in this way is consistent with my 'rendition' of definition 2 above. I give an excerpt of Romans 7 at the bottom of this post.
LucyTheApe (Message 279) mentioned Matt 22:36-40 where a 'lawyer' questioned Jesus, "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" 37 And He said to him, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."
I also agree with 'Lucy' that to live by these two 'summary' commandments is nearly impossible.
Your observation of inconsistent behavior among Christians proves this difficultness. But we are not 'off the hook'.
Jesus said in Matt 5:17, etc., "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished. 19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
I would say the question is not what but how.
-----------------------------------------------------
Rom. 7:12, etc., So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not wish to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by purpledawn, posted 07-31-2009 6:24 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by purpledawn, posted 08-04-2009 5:28 AM Richh has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 288 of 392 (518121)
08-04-2009 5:28 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by Richh
08-03-2009 10:14 PM


Re: Whats your list?
quote:
I would say the question is not what but how.
I don't understand what question you're asking in relation to this topic.
You can find my position in Message 6.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Richh, posted 08-03-2009 10:14 PM Richh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Richh, posted 08-13-2009 11:35 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 289 of 392 (518129)
08-04-2009 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by Peg
08-03-2009 9:18 PM


Re: about the oral law
quote:
Jesus did not follow the oral law or oral tradition. I've shown you that he condemned the pharisees for putting their oral laws ahead of the mosaic law. He did not agree as his words against their oral tradition shows:
The verse doesn't support your position that Jesus didn't follow the Oral Law or that the tradition in question was part of the Oral Law. Halakhah: Jewish Law
quote:
it makes no sense to me that God would tell moses to write down the law, but also that he was not to write down some of it. Do you really believe that??? Most of the Jews never believed it, Jesus certainly did not believe it and he was 'The Word' of God. So if anyone knew what Gods word was, it was jesus.
Do you read any of the links I provide? Remember, I don't believe Moses wrote anything in the Christian OT. For the sake of this issue, I will go with Moses as the author. The issue isn't God left something out. The issue is explaining the law. Explanations can take up a lot of room. For instance, the verses below. How does one interpret or apply this law?
Exodus 21
23. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life,
24. eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25. burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
The Sadducees who don't believe in the Oral Law, take it literally, which would mean if one causes a bruise they would inflict such a bruise on that person, etc.
They based their interpretations on their own traditions emphasizing a more literal understanding of the verses. In many respects, this led to a more severe observance than that of the Pharisees especially as regards purity laws and temple practice. It must be noted that most aspects of Sadduceean law and methods of interpretation are not known.
The Pharisees who do believe in the Oral Law, take it to imply monetary compensation.
The phrase "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a hand for a hand, a foot for a foot" Ex 21:22-27 is held in the oral tradition to imply monetary compensation - as opposed to a literal Lex talionis. Since the Torah requires that penalties be universally applicable, the phrase cannot be interpreted literally; it would be inapplicable to blind or eyeless offenders. Further, personal retribution is explicitly forbidden by the Torah (Lv 19:18 Leviticus 19:18), such reciprocal justice being strictly reserved for the social magistrate (usually in the form of regional courts). The Talmud explains this concept entails monetary compensation in tort cases.[5] This is the only interpretation consistent with Numbers 35:31. Additionally, this law cannot be carried out in practice, for both practical and ethical reasons (see also parashat Emor);
Just because Jesus followed some oral traditions, doesn't mean he followed all of them. You still seem to have the all or nothing attitude.
The ancient Galileans were noted as not being strict to oral traditions. Many of the people Galilee, were less strict "The Galileans generally were not such sticklers for tradition as were the Judeans. - Compare with Talmud (Megillah 75a)" "the former are, in fact, charged with neglecting tradition. In this regard it may be noted that Pharisees and scribes from Jerusalem, not from Galilee, were the ones who took issue with the failure of Jesus’ disciples to observe the traditional washing of hands.” Mark 7:1, 5."
Even Ezra had to explain:
Nehemiah 8:8
They read from the Book of the Law of God, making it clear and giving the meaning so that the people could understand what was being read.
quote:
That verse you quote does not come from the bible book of Ezra. You are reading from an apocryphal book. There is a reason why the jews did not accept apocryphal writings as inspired ...they contradicted the inspired writings because they were NOT from God.
Actually it is Deuterocanon (Second Canon) and in the Catholic Bible, it is also part of Jewish tradition concerning Ezra and as I noted in Message 285: In the book entitled "A History of the Jews" by Paul Johnson, Johnson notes that intellectual Jewish Reformers, about 170 bce, understood that the Law they had was not very old and did not go back to the time of Moses. (Page 101)
Since it was written after the destruction of the temple, why do you care what the Jews thought? I doubt if they considered the NT writings inspired by God. The Book is part of a Christian canon and therefore, by your terms, inspired by God.
quote:
think about it this way. If the apostles were given the command to preach and that command was only relevant to them alone. After they died, no one would hear the kingdom message ever again.
What people continued to do of their own accord is irrelevant. What is deemed law is. You cannot make it a law or command from Jesus for everyone when it wasn't. People who want to imitate the disciples can do so, but it isn't a requirment for us today per that verse.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Peg, posted 08-03-2009 9:18 PM Peg has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 290 of 392 (518171)
08-04-2009 11:27 AM


Richh,
Here are some thoughts of mine on some purpledawn's refered to Messge 6:
The problems I see with this being a legal law is that:
1. Jesus is talking to his 11 disciples after Judas left and seems to mean amongst themselves, not necessarily others.
I am concerned about the failure of purpledawn to realize the the disciples were only representative of all the disciples throughout history:
"Go therefore and disciple all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU." (my emphasis on Matt. 28:19-20a)
How can one say that Jesus was just talking to the 11 and no others for most of His ministry ? When He told them to go find a room to have the last supper, OK, we can say He was not talking to the modern day Christian. But I think most of us can see the large bulk of His teaching is targeted ONLY to the 11 or 12 in that surrounding group of followers but to all the other followers.
He prayed for us to that end:
"And I do not ask concerning these only [the 11 disciples], but concerning also those who believe into Me because of thier word, that they all may be one ..." (John 17:20,21a)
2. The verb "love" as used today carries a more limited meaning ( to hold dear) than the Greek "agapa" seems to carry. (to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly). Christian view of agape: In the New Testament, agap is charitable, selfless, altruistic, and unconditional. It is parental love, seen as creating goodness in the world; it is the way God is seen to love humanity, and it is seen as the kind of love that Christians aspire to have for one another. The Christian version is amongst Christians, not necessarily all mankind.
These are good obsevations about Agape Love. I have no problem with any of them really.
But I think it is vital to point out that this Agape love is the byproduct of having received Christ as the divine life, a life NONE of us was naturally born with:
"We know that we have passed out of death into life because we love the brothers." (1 John 3:14)
Passing out of the spiritual "death" through regeneration (being born anew) and walking in that new life ISSUES in the Agape love. We know we have passed out of death because the Agape love which comes from the divine life is flowing out of us who walk by the Spirit of Christ.
No unbeliever manifests this agape love though they may be filled with a natural love which is something the natural human soul was created with. The agape love is the evidence of Christ living in the man or woman. And it is proof that that person has been regenerated out of the spiritual death inherited from Adam.
"The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
Christ the last Adam implants the Agape love into man. And Paul says that this agape love was poured forth into the hearts of the believers "through the Holy Spirit":
"And hope does not put to shame, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit." That Holy Spirit is of course the "life giving Spirit" Whom Christ the last Adam became.
"Now the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17)
3. We don't really know how Jesus "loved" his disciples. There are no specifics for people to know what they are being judged against.
What do you say about this Rich?
I don't understand this. When we receive Jesus we certainly learn a lot about HOW He loved His disciples. Don't we?
But not only so John informs all the readers something of HOW Jesus loved His disciples. He loved them to the end and gave up His life for them.
"Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come for Him to depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the uttermost." (John 13:1)
At least we know that Jesus loved His disciples with this divine agape love "to the uttermost". We certainly know that Jesus loves us to the uttermost to forgive us and come to live in us, as imperfect as forgiven sinners as we are.
I have to look back on my life since I received Jesus and know that He must love me to the uttermost. He wants me for ETERNITY. He has to love me to the uttermost.
This "new" commandment doesn't seem to be any different than the love your neighbor as yourself commandment (Leviticus 19:18)
It may not seem different. But the disciples did not have this love until they passed out of death and into life by receiving the new birth in thier innermost being.
Peter has a natural love. But it failed him. He swore that because of his love for Jesus he would go to prison and to death with Him. Jesus knowing that the human natural love does not cut it in the kingdom of God warned Peter that he would deny that he knew Jesus before the cock crowed a couple of times in the morning.
It was as natural for Peter to forsake Jesus as it was for a rooster to crow in the morning. So Peter denied him with cursing, and that before a little powerless servant girl. The other disciples who did not know themselves also fled to protect their own skins. We all would have done the same thing.
The natural love of man does not compare to the Agape love stemming from the divine life. Peter wept bitterly that his "love" was not strong enough to stand by His Master in persecution.
Afterwards when Peter passed from death into life he was crucified upside down for His Master Jesus. He then loved the resurrected Christ to the uttermost.
that Jesus said was the second most important commandment taken by the Mishnah (a central text of the Jewish oral law) to refer to good deeds, willingness to sacrifice one's life rather than commit certain serious transgressions, willingness to sacrifice all of one's possessions, and being grateful to the Lord despite adversity (tractate Berachoth 9:5).
So this one is an OT "law" brought forward. Nothing new. Who enforces this law?
The Old Testament was chiefly the demand to expose man's inability to live up to the law of God in the natural being. Man needs another life. He needs the old man crucified with Christ and the new man formed in him from regeneration.
By works of the law shall no flesh be justified. And Paul wanted to found in Christ and not in his own self righteousness. He wanted to be found in realm of the indwelling Spirit of Christ.
" ... that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is out of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith." (Phil. 3:8c,9)
"I am able to do all things in Him who empowers me." (Phil. 4:13)
"For I through the law have died to law that I might live to God.
I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now love in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. I do not nullify the grace of God." (Gal. 20:20,21)
The indwelling of Christ was not brought forward from the Old Testament because God had not yet sent the Son. He had not yet died to create a standing in God. And He had not yet become a life giving Spirit to impart ZOE life or Agape love into His followers.
Rich, your comments on this ??
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by greentwiga, posted 08-05-2009 12:50 AM jaywill has replied

  
greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3427 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 291 of 392 (518287)
08-05-2009 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by jaywill
08-04-2009 11:27 AM


I have read through the posts and see one confusion. The Christian has no laws.
The Old Testament laws act like laws in the United States. If you break one law, you must pay the penalty. If you were driving drunk, it is no defense to say you never killed or stole. If you broke one OT law, you needed a sacrifice to atone for your sin. Until then, your relationship with God was broken.
The Christian is saved. He is part of the family. He does not need to worry about breaking a law and going to Hell. He is at peace.
The Law of Love is like a human family. If dad says, "son, do your chores and clean the room." (Sub mom and daughter as you see fit) The child cleans to some minimal amt. it isn't enough. Over time, the child learns the minimal to satisfy the parent.
Now Imagine that dad says, "Son, tomorrow is mom's B'day. Let's get the living room ready for a party." Son, who loves his mom very much, cleans and decorates far beyond what dad expected. There is no fear of punishment motivating the child.
This is Agape love. The true Christian ends up more righteous than the most righteous person under the law. (See what Jesus said about John the Baptist.) This is why all the law is summed up in the Laws of loving God and loving the neighbor. (Laws in the sense of rules but not laws in the sense that they result in punishment.) The one who truly loves goes far beyond the law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by jaywill, posted 08-04-2009 11:27 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Peg, posted 08-05-2009 5:23 AM greentwiga has not replied
 Message 293 by jaywill, posted 08-05-2009 6:42 AM greentwiga has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 292 of 392 (518299)
08-05-2009 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by greentwiga
08-05-2009 12:50 AM


greentwiga writes:
This is Agape love. The true Christian ends up more righteous than the most righteous person under the law. (See what Jesus said about John the Baptist.) This is why all the law is summed up in the Laws of loving God and loving the neighbor. (Laws in the sense of rules but not laws in the sense that they result in punishment.) The one who truly loves goes far beyond the law.
thats a pertinent point to this discussion
a person who loves God, will do his will without being forced to. Under the mosaic law, the Jews were born into a relationship by default and had no choice but to live by the laws.
this is precisely why God spoke about removing the Mosaic law and giving the people a new law that would be written on their hearts. Only those who truly loved God would allow that law to be written there. Obviously, there must still be laws though, otherwise why does God say he will write it on their heart?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by greentwiga, posted 08-05-2009 12:50 AM greentwiga has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 293 of 392 (518311)
08-05-2009 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by greentwiga
08-05-2009 12:50 AM


I have read through the posts and see one confusion. The Christian has no laws.
I have emphasized not "Christian laws" but "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus". That is for the Christians to "walk by the Spirit".
I have not been a advocate of listing the additional laws for Christians which we may attach on to the end of the law of Moses. My emphasis has been abiding in the living Christ and allowing Him to abide in the one walking by the Spirit.
To be fair, the New Testament does say that those not walking in this oneness with Christ are practicing "lawlessness". So while I am not pushing the umpteen new "Christian laws" I would hasten to add that the New Testament is not condoning "lawlessness". But the law of the Christian is really the indwelling and living Christ as the life giving Spirit.
The book of Galatians is all on this matter of living the indwelling Spirit of Christ verses the bondage of Old Testament law keeping.
The Old Testament laws act like laws in the United States. If you break one law, you must pay the penalty. If you were driving drunk, it is no defense to say you never killed or stole. If you broke one OT law, you needed a sacrifice to atone for your sin. Until then, your relationship with God was broken.
I understand that.
The Christian is saved. He is part of the family. He does not need to worry about breaking a law and going to Hell. He is at peace.
We should not think that "going to Hell" is the only accountability man has before God. I had to explain to a poster that the Christian eternally redeemed is still accountable before Christ. That accountability does not have eternal damnation as its penalty. But it can have punishment and the loss of reward as its penalty.
If this were not so many passages of the New Testament would not make very much sense. You know that Paul speaks of the being saved yet so as through fire, to some Christians who are to lose a reward. This is accountability.
Here is the passage:
"The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, beecause it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work, of what sort it is.
If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.
If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and such are you." (1 Cor. 3:13-17)
Words like "suffer loss" indicate a suffering to those who are eternally redeemed. And this is after the second coming of Christ for that Christian is examined in a trial before Him.
Words like "suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." indicate that one eternally redeemed may is still accountable and may be saved as through fire.
The specifics are not provided but the warning is extremely clear. The saved Christian, who is redeemed forever, is still accountable and may lose the reward. That reward is not a gift. It is an reward of some enjoyment of Christ in the coming 1,000 year millennial kingdom. The reward can be lost while the Christian is saved yet so as through fire.
So, walking in the Spirit is something we must learn to do. And also this walking has the corporate effect of building up the temple of God. To not walk according to the Spirit is to mar the temple and build with inferior materials. These "destroy" the temple of God. And for a punishment God will destroy that person.
According to the context of the passage for the Christian to be destroyed must mean the loss of reward, suffering loss, and being saved yet so as through fire.
The Law of Love is like a human family. If dad says, "son, do your chores and clean the room." (Sub mom and daughter as you see fit) The child cleans to some minimal amt. it isn't enough. Over time, the child learns the minimal to satisfy the parent.
Thank the Lord that transformation take time. We do not know how much time God has alloted the one who has received the Spirit of God. But she or he is to utilize time wisely so as to gain Christ each day and learn to walk by the Spirit. This will cause them to build upon the foundation with the superior materials rather than the inferior ones.
Paul writes:
"For another foundation no one is able to lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
But if anyone builds upon that foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, stubble, the work of each will become manifest, for the day will declare it, and the fire itself will prove each one's work, of what sort it is." (1 Cor. 3:11-13)
The gold represents the divine nature of the Father. The silver represents the redemptive work of Christ. And the precious stones represent the transformational work of the Holy Spirit.
This is just the Triune God. The concept is that the proper builder is one building upon the foundation of Christ by what is wrought into his personality and work by - the divine nature of the Father, the redemptive work of Jesus, and the transformation work of the Holy Spirit. He is living in the Triune God Who is operating in him.
The wood, grass, and stubble represent inferior aspects of the fallen man. They are found in great abundance.
I am called away and will have to continue latter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by greentwiga, posted 08-05-2009 12:50 AM greentwiga has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by greentwiga, posted 08-05-2009 10:18 AM jaywill has replied

  
greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3427 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 294 of 392 (518327)
08-05-2009 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by jaywill
08-05-2009 6:42 AM


Just picture a person returning to church. Due to drugs or greed or some such, he has alienated/hurt everyone. His reception is very guarded and he needs to show repentance to proceed farther. Another who has attended, never hurting, never helping. He gets a mild welcome. The one who was active and went on to do, say, missionary work gets a hero's welcome. You see similar actions in families.
Paul tells the Philippians that they are the jewels in his crown. Some enter heaven, barely. Some enter with a great celebration. We can take no other treasure than other people. We are a family.
God gave us gifts to give to the church. Yes, God is intimately involved in all this, in ways we won't understand till we arrive home.
Will some popular pastors who spent their time magnifying themselves end up with all their works burned despite their popularity? I think so.
Finally, focus on loving and giving and not on trying to obey some rules. Focus outward, not inward.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by jaywill, posted 08-05-2009 6:42 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by jaywill, posted 08-07-2009 7:11 AM greentwiga has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 295 of 392 (518661)
08-07-2009 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 294 by greentwiga
08-05-2009 10:18 AM


Just picture a person returning to church. Due to drugs or greed or some such, he has alienated/hurt everyone. His reception is very guarded and he needs to show repentance to proceed farther.
As I think you imply, the work of shepherding of the members of the Lord's Body is very important. I think leading a distracted saint back to the enjoyment of Christ is what is spoken of in James here:
"My brothers, if any one among you is led astray from the truth and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner back from the error of his ways will save that one's soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." (James 5:19,20)
As you imply, this is crucial ministry, the loving and welcoming back into fellowship the distracted brother or sister. We just have to enjoy Christ with them once again that they may be spiritually fed and nourished within. Then they will be strengthened.
Another who has attended, never hurting, never helping. He gets a mild welcome. The one who was active and went on to do, say, missionary work gets a hero's welcome. You see similar actions in families.
There are always activities which seem much more "visible". But someone once told us to look at the ceiling of the meeting hall. He said behind that ceiling are strong boards that no one ever sees. But if it weren't for those boards the ceiling could not be held in place.
Likewise he told us to look at a blackboard in the front of the meeting hall. He said no one ever removes that blackbaord and admires the strong bricks which hold it up. So there are hidden members in the church life who are so necessary but less "visible".
The Lord sees. Look at the praying ones. How vital are the effective prayers which can touch God's throne and move His hand. Jesus taught that someday the secretive prayers would not only be answered, they will also be rewarded or repayed:
"But you, when you pray, enter into your privte room, and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will repay you." (Matt. 6:6)
I believe one day we will see that the prayer warriors of the church facilitated so many things to happen to further God's kingdom. Though prayed in secret these warriors will be rewarded openly.
Paul tells the Philippians that they are the jewels in his crown. Some enter heaven, barely. Some enter with a great celebration. We can take no other treasure than other people. We are a family.
We should see also that the building of the temple is building what we are to enter into. Rather than the saved "going to" a happy place the saved are growing into that entity called "New Jerusalem".
Just as Noah built the ark and was saved from the flood by what he built, so the builded church is the living building into which we will enter to be saved from this age. Entering into God's mutual habitation of God and man is through our transformation. And our transformation is through God's dispensing His life and nature into our being.
The believers are "born anew" that they may grow and develop and be built together in that divine life with which they have been reborn.
As you mentioned the crown, I am reminded of Paul saying the "You are our glory and our joy" The saints were his "crown of rejoicing before our Lord Jesus at His coming."
God gave us gifts to give to the church. Yes, God is intimately involved in all this, in ways we won't understand till we arrive home.
Yes indeed. And we have today are foretaste of a fuller taste to come. So let us minister the gift of grace and impart Christ to the members of His Body.
Did you notice that John said that we could give divine life to one another? We function as gifts in His Body and can impart divine life to one another. Our prayers also can give life (1 John 5:16).
As we are speaking about reward and gift, I also notice that rather than lose the reward John encourages us to receive a full reward.
"Look to yourselves that you do not lose thethings which we wrought, but that you may receive a full reward." (1 John 8)
Will some popular pastors who spent their time magnifying themselves end up with all their works burned despite their popularity? I think so.
May the Lord have mercy on us. It is so easy for us to be distracted by the vainglory of this passing age.
Finally, focus on loving and giving and not on trying to obey some rules. Focus outward, not inward.
Notice that the bearing of fruit in John 15 is from abiding in the true vine. In this chapter the "great commission" (John style) is the fruit bearing which overflows from abiding in Christ and allowing Him to abide in us.
To John's recollection Jesus stressed that apart from abiding in Him the disciples could do nothing. So to walk in Him and abide in Him is also needed for the evangelism. To "go forth and bear fruit" surely means to go forth abiding in Christ and letting His word abide in us, and letting Him abide in us.
May the Lord grant us much mercy. Thanks for sharing your portion. Share again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by greentwiga, posted 08-05-2009 10:18 AM greentwiga has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by greentwiga, posted 08-07-2009 9:46 PM jaywill has replied

  
greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3427 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 296 of 392 (518763)
08-07-2009 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by jaywill
08-07-2009 7:11 AM


It is amazing, how, once we have started focusing on "Christian Laws," that we immediately lose that which sets us apart spiritually and we become no different than other people who are focused on themselves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by jaywill, posted 08-07-2009 7:11 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by jaywill, posted 08-10-2009 7:45 AM greentwiga has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 297 of 392 (518790)
08-08-2009 9:23 AM


Deeds of the flesh or fruit of the Spirit
Gal 5:18-23
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Societies/governments enact all sorts of laws to control the "deeds of the flesh," but those who inherit the kingdom of God put on the fruit of the Spirit, "against such things there is no law."
Blessings

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 298 of 392 (518975)
08-10-2009 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 296 by greentwiga
08-07-2009 9:46 PM


It is amazing, how, once we have started focusing on "Christian Laws," that we immediately lose that which sets us apart spiritually and we become no different than other people who are focused on themselves.
Here below is one of the Hymns in the Hymnal used by the churches in the Lord's recovery on taking Christ Himself as our all in all.
It is very good in turning our focus back from law keeping to the living Person of Christ Himself.
Not the law of letters,
But the Christ of life
God desires to give us,
Saving us from strife;
It is not some doctrine,
But 'tis Christ Himself
Who alone releases
From our sinful self.
Any kind of teaching,
Any kind of form,
Cannot quicken spirits
Or our souls transform;
It is Christ as Spirit
Gives us life divine,
Thus thru us to live the
Life of God's design.
Not philosophy nor
Any element
Can to Christ conform us
As His complement;
But 'tis Christ Himself who
All our nature takes
And in resurrection
Us His members makes
Not religion, even
Christianity,
Can fulfill God's purpose
Or economy;
But 'tis Christ within us
As our all in all
Satisfies God's wishes
And His plan withal
All the gifts were given
By the Lord in grace,
All the different functions
Cannot Christ replace.
Only Christ Himself must
Be our all in all!
Only Christ Himself in
All things, great or small!
[Hymn #541, LSM Hymnal (words by Witness Lee ]
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by greentwiga, posted 08-07-2009 9:46 PM greentwiga has not replied

  
Richh
Member (Idle past 3738 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 299 of 392 (519471)
08-13-2009 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by purpledawn
08-04-2009 5:28 AM


Re: Whats your list?
I read your message 6 and would like to make the following comments in relation to that.
The New Testament speaks of justification by faith. Related to justification are the concepts of forgiveness and redemption.
This justification is being made OK to God, to have peace with God. The goal of justification is to bring us back into fellowship with God. This justification is solely by grace through faith and not of works (Eph. 2:8, 9).
The God with Whom our fellowship is restored (by justification) is the righteous, holy, loving God. He wants to conform man to His image. So, even though God justifies by faith, that does not imply that God will condone an unrighteous, unholy, unloving living.
My question related to this topic was, 'How can someone keep the laws on God's list (or a Christian Law list)?' I imagine this forum on Christian Laws is based on a desire to keep the laws, not just to know them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by purpledawn, posted 08-04-2009 5:28 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by purpledawn, posted 08-14-2009 7:00 AM Richh has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 300 of 392 (519491)
08-14-2009 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 299 by Richh
08-13-2009 11:35 PM


Re: Whats your list?
quote:
My question related to this topic was, 'How can someone keep the laws on God's list (or a Christian Law list)?' I imagine this forum on Christian Laws is based on a desire to keep the laws, not just to know them.
Then you would be incorrect and didn't understand what was said in Message 6.
quote:
The God with Whom our fellowship is restored (by justification) is the righteous, holy, loving God. He wants to conform man to His image. So, even though God justifies by faith, that does not imply that God will condone an unrighteous, unholy, unloving living.
See you've done the same thing that many Christians do. You've stated that ones behavior does not make one justified, righteous, or whatever catch phrase ones group prefers; but in the same breath say that God will not condone unrighteous, unholy, unloving behavior.
That's how Peg's statement can be summarized, which I did in Message 6:
PurpleDawn writes:
What I'm reading is that following God's law does not make one righteous or get one on the list for resurrection, only faith in Jesus Christ can get one on the list. BUT, to show faith in God, one must adopt his laws or live as he directs. So we still have to follow "the law" even though it doesn't get us a spot, but yet it does. See the contradiction? Again, make up your mind.
My contention is that there are no Christian Laws.
In Message 114 I stated:
PurpleDawn writes:
Like Hillel before him, Jesus brought a more humane and universal notion of Torah interpretation. The spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. If one gets the spirit right, the details will take care of themselves.
We look at what the authors are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families.
There are no Christian laws, there are only Christian principles derived from the spirit of the ancient writings and the experiences of people who have gone before.
Your question of how can one keep (follow) the laws on God's list or a Christian list is irrelevant unless there is a list.
There is currently no Christian legal system. If any Christian persists in presenting the same position as Peg, then they need to provide a list and justification that it is a legal binding law for people today:
Peg writes:
Message 344 Anyone who wants to benefit from that salvation MUST put their faith in Jesus Christ and must follow him. This goes for Gentiles too...they must submit to Christian law and the teaching of Christs Apostles. Gods laws and mans are quite different and just because a gentile follows the laws of their land does not mean that they have a righteous standing with God. They must follow Gods laws in order to obtain that. Remember that it is 'Faith' in God that counts a person as righteous, not works of any law.
To show faith in God, one must adopt HIS laws....or better put, live as he directs.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Richh, posted 08-13-2009 11:35 PM Richh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by Richh, posted 08-18-2009 11:30 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 312 by jaywill, posted 08-25-2009 7:53 AM purpledawn has replied

  
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