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Author Topic:   Abortion questions...?
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4229 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 136 of 403 (602026)
01-25-2011 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by New Cat's Eye
01-25-2011 4:14 PM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
not the kind i use.
if there are those that prevent implantation, then i think that is an abortion too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-25-2011 4:14 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by onifre, posted 01-25-2011 5:11 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 137 of 403 (602034)
01-25-2011 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Artemis Entreri
01-25-2011 4:26 PM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
if there are those that prevent implantation, then i think that is an abortion too.
So would you call that method of birth control a homicidal method?
I am not sure. preventing life from occuring (conception), is not consistent with destroying a life that already exists.
It is all life, at different stages. They're all the same cells at one particular stage of the process or another. If the destruction of one set of sells is ok, why isn't the other set of cells ok to destroy?
From a more religious perspective, if it's a soul you're destroying, wouldn't the sperm and the egg both be carrying half the soul? Wouldn't destroying sperm and eggs be the same a destroying half a human soul every single time?
How many half-human souls have been lost during the course of the average male's life? Or female's life?
I'm just trying to find some consistency here.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Artemis Entreri, posted 01-25-2011 4:26 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 01-25-2011 5:23 PM onifre has replied
 Message 139 by slevesque, posted 01-25-2011 5:28 PM onifre has replied
 Message 384 by Artemis Entreri, posted 02-03-2011 12:44 PM onifre has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 138 of 403 (602035)
01-25-2011 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by onifre
01-25-2011 5:11 PM


Soul Mathematics
onifre writes:
... if it's a soul you're destroying, wouldn't the sperm and the egg both be carrying half the soul?
And how does soul mathematics work in the case of twins?

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

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Replies to this message:
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 139 of 403 (602036)
01-25-2011 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by onifre
01-25-2011 5:11 PM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
It is all life, at different stages. They're all the same cells at one particular stage of the process or another. If the destruction of one set of sells is ok, why isn't the other set of cells ok to destroy?
You do realize you are a set of cells yourself. Since you think it is ok to abort a foetus, does it mean it is ok to kill you ? (since both are a set of cells)
Clearly, not every set of cells are equal. It's just a matter of determining which is, and which isn't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by onifre, posted 01-25-2011 5:11 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by onifre, posted 01-25-2011 5:51 PM slevesque has replied
 Message 142 by nwr, posted 01-25-2011 6:10 PM slevesque has not replied
 Message 143 by cavediver, posted 01-25-2011 7:04 PM slevesque has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 140 of 403 (602039)
01-25-2011 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by slevesque
01-25-2011 5:28 PM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
Since you think it is ok to abort a foetus, does it mean it is ok to kill you ?
We are not talking about aborting a fetus. We're not at that stage of development yet in this discussion.
At the stage we were discussing, a sperm cell and a zygote are practically the same thing, just a combination of two haploids.
We're talking about not caring at all if we destroy a haploid cell(sperm) but caring beyond reasonable conversation for destroying a diploid cell(zygote).
Is there really a difference?
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by slevesque, posted 01-25-2011 5:28 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by slevesque, posted 01-26-2011 3:34 AM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 141 of 403 (602040)
01-25-2011 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by ringo
01-25-2011 5:23 PM


Re: Soul Mathematics
And how does soul mathematics work in the case of twins?
You just blew my fucking mind!
- Oni

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 Message 138 by ringo, posted 01-25-2011 5:23 PM ringo has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 142 of 403 (602043)
01-25-2011 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by slevesque
01-25-2011 5:28 PM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
slevesque writes:
You do realize you are a set of cells yourself. Since you think it is ok to abort a foetus, does it mean it is ok to kill you ?
Personally, I don't have a problem with shaving (which can kill a set of cells), and I don't think of shaving as the first step on a slippery slope to homicide.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by slevesque, posted 01-25-2011 5:28 PM slevesque has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3644 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(1)
Message 143 of 403 (602048)
01-25-2011 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by slevesque
01-25-2011 5:28 PM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
Since you think it is ok to abort a foetus, does it mean it is ok to kill you ?
Of course it is ok. How could it not be? Every minute, ten children die a preventable death (just counting those under five years old.) There is no sanctity of human life - just a perceived one within your own zone of comfort.
Source

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by slevesque, posted 01-25-2011 5:28 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by slevesque, posted 01-26-2011 3:45 AM cavediver has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 144 of 403 (602056)
01-25-2011 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by ringo
01-25-2011 5:23 PM


Re: Soul Mathematics
Hi ringo,
onifre writes:
... if it's a soul you're destroying, wouldn't the sperm and the egg both be carrying half the soul?
And how does soul mathematics work in the case of twins?
Obviously someone doesn't get it ...
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 01-25-2011 5:23 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 145 of 403 (602062)
01-25-2011 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by onifre
01-25-2011 11:51 AM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
Hi oni,
onifre writes:
Looking at these global numbers really trumps the 900,000 legally administered abortions that occur per year.
Where did you get that number from?
In 2005 the last date we have verified stats on in the US there was 1.21 million abortions. Worldwide it grows to 46 million per year. That comes out to about 87 legal abortions per minute if my math is correct.
15 million children die of starvation each year in the world. That comes out to about 28 per minute if my math is correct.
So your numbers are a little out of whack.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by onifre, posted 01-25-2011 11:51 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by onifre, posted 01-25-2011 10:46 PM ICANT has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 146 of 403 (602070)
01-25-2011 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by ICANT
01-25-2011 9:21 PM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
Where did you get that number from?
Here
quote:
CDC Abortion Surveillance---United States
Description of System: For each year since 1969, CDC has compiled abortion data by state or area of occurrence. Information is requested each year from all 50 states, New York City, and the District of Columbia. For 2005, data were received from 49 reporting areas: New York City, District of Columbia, and all states except California, Louisiana, and New Hampshire. For the purpose of trends analysis, data were evaluated from the 46 reporting areas that have been consistently reported since 1995.
Results: A total of 820,151 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC for 2005 from 49 reporting areas, the abortion ratio (number of abortions per 1,000 live births) was 233, and the abortion rate was 15 per 1,000 women aged 15--44 years. For the 46 reporting areas that have consistently reported since 1995, the abortion rate declined during 1995--2000 but has remained unchanged since 2000.
Where did you get your numbers from?
15 million children die of starvation each year in the world. That comes out to about 28 per minute if my math is correct.
Pretty sad, right? What was your point here?
So your numbers are a little out of whack.
Hardly...
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by ICANT, posted 01-25-2011 9:21 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by ICANT, posted 01-26-2011 12:48 PM onifre has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 147 of 403 (602086)
01-26-2011 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by onifre
01-25-2011 5:51 PM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
The reasoning you were using was: ''If it is ok to kill one set of cells, why isn't it ok to kill another set of cells?''
A foetus is also simply a set of cells at another stage then the zygote, as is a newborn, as is a child, as are both of us. So what I was saying is that the right question is: ''Which set of cells is it ok to kill, at which stage does it become ok ?''
Now, I perfectly understand that you are arguing that there are no reasons to put the line between the two haploids and the zygote. But you have to put a line somewhere, and since this is a continuum, it is not sufficient to look ''before'' and ''after'' the line, see negligeable differences, and therefore argue the line cannot be put there.
After all, society has put the line at birth. But really, what is the difference between when the baby is inside, and when he is outside a couple hours later ?
But since you have a line, and that it is a continuum, then you have to put it at least at a critical moment. The birth is such a critical moment. The fertilization of the ovum is another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by onifre, posted 01-25-2011 5:51 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 148 of 403 (602087)
01-26-2011 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by cavediver
01-25-2011 7:04 PM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
Are you saying all these deaths are ok ?
Because as a christian I think it is totally unacceptable. Unacceptable that we, the more fortunate and able in this world, go about our daily lives as if those tragedies aren't happening every second. Unacceptable that it seems to be only a superficial concern for us, that we send 10$ in the mail and feel that we have done our part. And certainly unacceptable that people think these deaths somehow justify feeling comfortable about paying 500$ to abort a foetus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by cavediver, posted 01-25-2011 7:04 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by hooah212002, posted 01-26-2011 9:24 AM slevesque has replied
 Message 152 by jar, posted 01-26-2011 10:14 AM slevesque has replied
 Message 206 by cavediver, posted 01-27-2011 4:17 AM slevesque has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 149 of 403 (602093)
01-26-2011 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by slevesque
01-26-2011 3:34 AM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
The reasoning you were using was: ''If it is ok to kill one set of cells, why isn't it ok to kill another set of cells?''
I was only trying to keep AE consistent in his thinking. If a haploid is ok to destroy with zero reservations, shouldn't a zygote be destroyed with zero reservations? It's literally the same thing.
AE said he felt destroying a zygote was homicide, so I asked if he felt destroying a haploid was too since they are the same thing. He said "no," and that made very little sense to me.
Now, I perfectly understand that you are arguing that there are no reasons to put the line between the two haploids and the zygote. But you have to put a line somewhere, and since this is a continuum, it is not sufficient to look ''before'' and ''after'' the line, see negligeable differences, and therefore argue the line cannot be put there.
That's fine, put the line somewhere, but to me it seemed silly to put the line between two haploids and a zygote, when it is exactly the same thing. At least there, the line should not be. We can argue where it should be from that point forward, but it makes no sense to put it where AE had it.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by slevesque, posted 01-26-2011 3:34 AM slevesque has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 150 of 403 (602094)
01-26-2011 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by slevesque
01-26-2011 3:45 AM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
Pretty sure he was implying that christians don't go around protesting about children in Africa dying, or the homeless in America. They don't parade around with posterboards of dirty crack babies or welfare kids. Nope, they would rather march around Planned Parenthood with picket signs of half aborted fetuses and make expecting mothers or pregnant women, who are going through what is likely the most important decision of their life and what is probably the hardest thing they have ever went through, feel like shit because they don't like their choice. Because it's ok to make people feel like shit if they have different ideals than you, right? That's the christian way.
At least that's what I took from cavediver's statement.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by slevesque, posted 01-26-2011 3:45 AM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
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