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Author
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Topic: Does the Book of Mormon contradict the Bible?
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Michamus
Member (Idle past 5178 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined: 03-16-2009
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Message 1 of 352 (505526)
04-13-2009 7:53 AM
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I am calling out Peg on a claim she has made.
PEG writes:
As soon as anyone creates their own book, especially one that contradicts the bible, it has to be questioned.
Peg is under the impression that the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible. I have asked her to provide 3 examples of the Book of Mormon contradicting the Bible. She has only responded so far with quotes from Joseph Smith, and a non-referenced summary of the LDS Church Belief. I will touch on the quotes from Joseph Smith:
PEG writes:
Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal body." JosephF. Smith, president from 1901 to 1918 the Bible teaches that the parents of all humans was Adam & Eve, fleshly humans, not spirits.
This can be easily be argued as Adam and Eve being the parents of the Human Body, not spirit. A good question would be, where does the Human Spirit come from? Does the Bible have any accounts of man existing before this mortal existence?
LDS Website writes:
2. Jeremiah had a premortal existence. Through revelation the prophet Jeremiah learned something about the preexistence of his own soul. The Lord spoke to him and said, “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.” (Jer. 1:5.) Since, as this passage states, the Lord knew Jeremiah before he was born and sanctified Jeremiah before he was born and ordained Jeremiah before he was born, it must be clear that Jeremiah was in existence before his mortal birth. 3. Job had a premortal existence. On one occasion the Lord asked the prophet Job, “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4, 7.) Now although the Lord didn’t tell Job where he was before the foundations of the earth were laid, the very question implies that Job was in existence somewhere”and not only Job but “all the sons of God.” And when we recall that the Bible teaches that we are the sons of God (“the offspring of God” is the way the apostle Paul phrases it in Acts 17:29), we can’t help but conclude that we were in existence with Job (and Jeremiah and the Lord Jesus Christ) before the earth was created. 4. Jesus made no attempt to correct his apostles when they expressed a belief in man’s premortal existence. This conclusion is based on an incident narrated in the ninth chapter of John. In reference to a blind man the apostles asked Jesus, “Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?” (John 9:2.) Note that their question was not simply whether the man’s parents had sinned before he was born but whether the man himself had sinned before he was born. Their query plainly shows that they believed that the man had been both alive and capable of sinning before he was born.
PEG writes:
2. "God Himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens." Joseph Smith the Bible teaches that The Almighty God is a spirit person and nowhere does it say that God was once a man.
The Bible never explicitly states the nature or history of Elohim (which is a plurality as the Council of El) other than it being the creator. This is why there is a plural "us" in the creation, and interaction between Adam, Eve, and God. It is after the expulsion that YHWH comes into the picture. Thus, you cannot contradict information that does not exist.
PEG writes:
Mormon Theology states that all humankind existed as spirit beings in heaven before coming to earth. The purpose of their coming to earth is so that they can be tested and, if successful, be exalted, that they may eventually become gods themselves with worlds of their own." The bible teaches that man was made from the dust of the earth. He did not exist until God made him.
Again, you are discussing the physical creation of man. This does not prohibit the increase in "knowledge" on a pre-existing spirit. The logical following is, that which is created on earth, must end... therefor the spirit must have previously existed. These points I have made were merely a rebuttal. The original topic still stands of naming contradictions that exist between the BoM and the Bible. I am looking forward to your responses.
Suggested forum: 'Faith and Belief' Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Replace "BoM" with "Book of Mormon" in topic title.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 3 by Rahvin, posted 04-13-2009 2:09 PM | | Michamus has not replied | | | Message 4 by kuresu, posted 04-13-2009 2:59 PM | | Michamus has not replied | | | Message 5 by Peg, posted 04-13-2009 8:47 PM | | Michamus has replied | | | Message 12 by ochaye, posted 08-26-2009 2:36 PM | | Michamus has not replied | | | Message 54 by kbertsche, posted 08-27-2009 10:31 PM | | Michamus has replied | | | Message 55 by kbertsche, posted 08-27-2009 10:53 PM | | Michamus has replied | | | Message 56 by kbertsche, posted 08-27-2009 11:15 PM | | Michamus has not replied | | | Message 57 by kbertsche, posted 08-27-2009 11:50 PM | | Michamus has replied | | | Message 58 by kbertsche, posted 08-28-2009 12:09 AM | | Michamus has replied | | | Message 176 by polla1, posted 11-10-2009 11:09 AM | | Michamus has replied |
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AdminNosy
Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: 11-11-2003
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Message 2 of 352 (505541)
04-13-2009 9:08 AM
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Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Rahvin
Member Posts: 4039 Joined: 07-01-2005 Member Rating: 8.2
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Message 3 of 352 (505559)
04-13-2009 2:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Michamus
04-13-2009 7:53 AM
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Peg seems to be taking the position that "additional information not present in previous texts" equates to "contradiction." Obviously, this cannot be the case. Genesis doesn't say anythign at all about Jesus dying on the corss - does this mean that the Gospels "contradict" Genesis? (We could likely talk all day about actual contradictions, but I think that's outside of the scope here) Clearly not. Additional information does not necessarily contradict anything else. If the Book of Mormon taught that Jesus did not die on the cross, or that he didn't rise from the dead, or that God didn't create man, or contained other actual contradictions, the Peg would have a point. But Mormon teachings aren't necessarily contradictory to the Bible itself. They may be contraictory to Peg's particular interpretation of the Bible, but then, many other Christian denominations would be as well, and they often use the very same Bible that Peg does. And, of course, there's teh fact that various Christian denominations use very different Bibles - we've gone over that subject many times here at EvC. It seems to me that the Book of Mormon is simply another addition to the canon, no different from those denominations that recognize various apocryphal books as part of their Bibles.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Michamus, posted 04-13-2009 7:53 AM | | Michamus has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 11 by ochaye, posted 08-26-2009 2:28 PM | | Rahvin has not replied |
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2534 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: 03-24-2006
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Message 4 of 352 (505566)
04-13-2009 2:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Michamus
04-13-2009 7:53 AM
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peg writes: As soon as anyone creates their own book, especially one that contradicts the bible, it has to be questioned. Of course, I wonder how Peg deals with the contradictions within the numerous books of the Bible themselves? As an anthology, the Bible is quite far from being consistent and non-contradictory. Never mind individual books contradicting each other (or being inconsistent), Genesis alone seems to do that within itself. And then there's the fact that the Bible was created by man, and there are numerous editions of the anthology and there have been numerous additions to the anthology. I guess what all this means is that we can throw the Bible out. I, for one, won't miss it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Michamus, posted 04-13-2009 7:53 AM | | Michamus has not replied |
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4950 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: 11-22-2008
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Message 5 of 352 (505595)
04-13-2009 8:47 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Michamus
04-13-2009 7:53 AM
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Michamus writes: This can be easily be argued as Adam and Eve being the parents of the Human Body, not spirit. A good question would be, where does the Human Spirit come from? Does the Bible have any accounts of man existing before this mortal existence? If this were true, then the spirit would always be conscious and the scriptures you quote from jeremiah and Job would make no sense because why would Jeremiah and Job not remember their pre human existence. The spirit of man is said to die in the bible.
quote:
Ecclesiasties 3:19For there is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. 20All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.
They have all come from the dust and all are returning to the dust. If the spirit of them lived on, then surely the spirit would be going elsewhere and not to the dust. Incidently, The Greek word pneu'ma (spirit) comes from pne′o, meaning "breathe or blow," and the Hebrew ru'ach (spirit) conveys the same meaning thus they basically mean "breath". The breath is the force of life in physical creatures. It can also die as the following scripture shows... Psalm 146:3"Do not put YOUR trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs.
4His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground;
In that day his thoughts do perish." so the spirit does not come from some other place, nor does it survive after the death of the body...therefore its impossible that the scriptures you quote could mean what you posted.
Michamus writes: The Bible never explicitly states the nature or history of Elohim (which is a plurality as the Council of El) other than it being the creator. This is why there is a plural "us" in the creation, and interaction between Adam, Eve, and God. It is after the expulsion that YHWH comes into the picture. Thus, you cannot contradict information that does not exist. thats convenient lol
Michamus writes: Again, you are discussing the physical creation of man. This does not prohibit the increase in "knowledge" on a pre-existing spirit. The logical following is, that which is created on earth, must end... therefor the spirit must have previously existed. and therein is a contradiciton to the Bible because in the Bible the word for Spirit is as i've shown. It means 'breath of life' According to the bible the spirit can die According to the bible the spirit of man is the same as the spirit in animals. So the mormon church has a different meaning of spirit then what the biblical spirit is.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Michamus, posted 04-13-2009 7:53 AM | | Michamus has replied |
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Michamus
Member (Idle past 5178 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined: 03-16-2009
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Message 6 of 352 (505605)
04-13-2009 10:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 5 by Peg
04-13-2009 8:47 PM
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Peg, Peg, Peg
Peg, It seems you have great difficulty in staying on topic. Please answer the challenge.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by Peg, posted 04-13-2009 8:47 PM | | Peg has not replied |
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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2718 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: 02-04-2008
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Message 7 of 352 (505630)
04-14-2009 10:39 AM
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Reply to: Message 5 by Peg
04-13-2009 8:47 PM
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Spiritual Death
Hi, Peg.
Peg writes: quote:
Ecclesiasties 3:19 For there is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. 20 All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.
If the spirit of them lived on, then surely the spirit would be going elsewhere and not to the dust. By my reading, that scripture doesn't say anything about spirits going to the dust: when it says "both," it is referring to man and beast, not body and spirit. But, no matter: curiously enough, Mormons also believe that spirits die:
quote:
16 And now behold, I say unto you then cometh a death, even a second death, which is a spiritual death; then is a time that whosoever dieth in his sins, as to a temporal death, shall also die a spiritual death; yea, he shall die as to things pertaining unto righteousness. Book of Mormon
Alma 12: 16
From the LDS perspective, the Book of Mormon clarifies those things in the Bible that are meant to be taken as metaphors, but are most commonly taken as literal fact. In this case, "spiritual death" is being cut off from the presence of God, and this happens to the wicked after they die. This is the Mormon definition of Hell. ----- So, I've defeated your argument on two fronts:
- The Bible doesn't say what you wrote that it says.
- The Book of Mormon doesn't even contradict your erroneous interpretation of the Bible.
----- Obviously, I have a bit of an advantage in this topic, since I read both the Bible and the Book of Mormon on a regular basis. So, to even the playing field, let me provide you with my sources:
Here is an online version of the Book of Mormon (the link goes to the Table of Contents). You can read it for yourself, if you'd like: then you'd know what it actually says, rather than what somebody else told you it says. Also, here is a link to the Topical Guide, which is an index in the back of the Mormon KJV that lists scriptures that relate to specific topics. For instance, look up the term "Death, Spiritual" (under "D"), and you'll come up with a list of scriptures from the Bible, the BoM, the D&C and the Pearl of Great Price that are related to the topic of spiritual death, as defined within Mormonism (there’s quite a large number of them). A simple reading of these materials would answer any questions anyone might have about what Mormon doctrine is.
-Bluejay/Mantis/Thylacosmilus Darwin loves you.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by Peg, posted 04-13-2009 8:47 PM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 8 by Peg, posted 04-15-2009 6:46 AM | | Blue Jay has replied |
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4950 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: 11-22-2008
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Message 8 of 352 (505673)
04-15-2009 6:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 7 by Blue Jay
04-14-2009 10:39 AM
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Re: Spiritual Death
Hi Bluejay, I think you've just proved my point about the mormon church not using the bible. I quoted you a scripture from the bible, and you chose to use the BOM to contradict it rather then use the bible to show me why I am wrong. This was the same experience I had with the mormons that I met. I wanted to discuss the bible but they wanted to discuss the BOM. I would like you expertise on these verses from the BOM. Could you please explain each of these scriptures. Q. What is the difference between the Father, the Son & God?
quote:
Mosiah 15: 2-3, 5, 7
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son
Q. When & Where did/does this take place?
quote:
2 Ne. 10: 7 But behold, thus saith the Lord God: When the day cometh that they shall believe in me, that I am Christ, then have I covenanted with their fathers that they shall be restored in the flesh, upon the earth, unto the lands of their inheritance.
Q. How does this resurrection take place? In flesh or in spirit?
quote:
Jacob 4: 11
11 Wherefore, beloved brethren, be reconciled unto him through the atonement of Christ, his Only Begotten Son, and ye may obtain a resurrection, according to the power of the resurrection which is in Christ, and be presented as the first-fruits of Christ unto God, having faith, and obtained a good hope of glory in him before he manifesteth himself in the flesh.
Q. What was the original image of God? Spiritual or Fleshly?
quote:
Mosiah 7: 27
27 And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the bimage of man, and it should be the cimage after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of dGod, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth
Q. Is this referring to the BOM or the Bible?
quote:
2 Ne. 31: 21
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by Blue Jay, posted 04-14-2009 10:39 AM | | Blue Jay has replied |
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2534 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: 03-24-2006
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Message 9 of 352 (505678)
04-15-2009 8:39 AM
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Reply to: Message 8 by Peg
04-15-2009 6:46 AM
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Re: Spiritual Death
Real quickly, this is a "do'h!" moment:
I quoted you a scripture from the bible, and you chose to use the BOM to contradict it rather then use the bible to show me why I am wrong. Tell me, what's the difference between the KJV, the Vulgate, and the Eastern Orthodox bibles? Oh yeah, they all include or exclude certain books that the other has. Esdras and Odes seem to be missing from the vulgate and KJV. The KJV is missing Tobias, Judith, Maccabees 1, 2, 3, and 4 (Vulgate misses Maccabees 3 and 4), and Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus. The Ethiopian Orthodox Bible has several books that neither the KJV, Vulgate, or Eastern Orthodox have. So if I quote something from the Book of Tobias, or perhaps Maccabees 3 or 4, or maybe Esdras, I'm obviously not using a book of the bible to support my position. Let's not even get started on the numerous translations and how they differ and thus potentially change the message. When you can show that every single christian uses the exact same bible, your argument might hold some water. As it is, you're sinking fast.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by Peg, posted 04-15-2009 6:46 AM | | Peg has not replied |
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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2718 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: 02-04-2008
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Message 10 of 352 (505705)
04-15-2009 4:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 8 by Peg
04-15-2009 6:46 AM
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Re: Spiritual Death
Hi, Peg.
Peg writes: I think you've just proved my point about the mormon church not using the bible. I quoted you a scripture from the bible, and you chose to use the BOM to contradict it rather then use the bible to show me why I am wrong. Please enlighten me as to how else I can argue the point that the BoM doesn't contradict the Bible, if not with scriptures from the BoM. -----
Peg writes: Q. What is the difference between the Father, the Son & God? quote:
Mosiah 15: 2-3, 5, 7
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son
"Father" is just a title. Jesus and God are two distinct beings. Jesus earned the title "Father" because He was the one who actually created the Earth (under God's direction).
quote:
And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary. --Mosiah 3:8
-----
Peg writes: Q. When & Where did/does this take place? quote:
2 Ne. 10: 7 But behold, thus saith the Lord God: When the day cometh that they shall believe in me, that I am Christ, then have I covenanted with their fathers that they shall be restored in the flesh, upon the earth, unto the lands of their inheritance.
This is talking about the gathering of the Lost Tribes of Israel. Since some of your quotes have the footnote letters in them, I’m assuming you copied and pasted from lds.org? The footnotes there are hyperlinked, and you can find the answers to these questions pretty easily. Incidentally, foonote c from that scripture takes you to Genesis 49:10 (that’s in the Bible, by the way):
quote:
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
-----
Peg writes: Q. How does this resurrection take place? In flesh or in spirit? Was Jesus resurrected in flesh or in spirit? By definition then, shouldn’t our resurrection be the same? -----
Peg writes: Q. What was the original image of God? Spiritual or Fleshly? Spiritual. All things were created spiritually before they were created physically (D&C 29:32). We interpret Genesis 2 (all things created before they were on the earth) as referring to this spiritual creation (that’s two references to the Bible so far). -----
Peg writes: Q. Is this referring to the BOM or the Bible?
quote:
2 Ne. 31: 21
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.
Neither one: it’s referring to Jesus Christ. ----- I'd like to write more, but I've got to go to class, and it's my wife's birthday tonight. I'll talk to you again later. Thanks, Peg.
-Bluejay/Mantis/Thylacosmilus Darwin loves you.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by Peg, posted 04-15-2009 6:46 AM | | Peg has not replied |
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ochaye
Member (Idle past 5259 days) Posts: 307 Joined: 03-08-2009
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Message 11 of 352 (521222)
08-26-2009 2:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 3 by Rahvin
04-13-2009 2:09 PM
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Deleted Edited by ochaye, : posted to wrong person
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 3 by Rahvin, posted 04-13-2009 2:09 PM | | Rahvin has not replied |
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ochaye
Member (Idle past 5259 days) Posts: 307 Joined: 03-08-2009
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Message 12 of 352 (521226)
08-26-2009 2:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Michamus
04-13-2009 7:53 AM
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If BoM does not contradict any Bible teaching, why not just make do with the Bible? Why do people think they need another Scripture? ..
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Michamus, posted 04-13-2009 7:53 AM | | Michamus has not replied |
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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3258 days) Posts: 1593 From: Wisconsin Joined: 05-15-2003
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Message 13 of 352 (521227)
08-26-2009 2:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 12 by ochaye
08-26-2009 2:36 PM
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If BoM does not contradict any Bible teaching, why not just make do with the Bible?
Why do people think they need another Scripture? I'm not Mormon, nor am I a Chrisitan at all and I can see the obvious answer. There are passages in the Bible that are difficult to decipher or to understand, especially since we're 2000 years (or more) removed from the events taking place. An updated book with explanations and more recent revelations would be pretty handy, wouldn't they?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 12 by ochaye, posted 08-26-2009 2:36 PM | | ochaye has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 16 by ochaye, posted 08-26-2009 4:05 PM | | Perdition has replied |
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Rahvin
Member Posts: 4039 Joined: 07-01-2005 Member Rating: 8.2
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Message 14 of 352 (521232)
08-26-2009 2:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 12 by ochaye
08-26-2009 2:36 PM
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If BoM does not contradict any Bible teaching, why not just make do with the Bible? Why do people think they need another Scripture? If the New Testament does not contradict any Old Testament teaching,, why not just make do with the Old Testament? If Mark does not contradict and teaching from the other Gospels, why not just make do with the other Gospels? Come on, this is easy. Additions and extrapolations do not necessarily contradict, but can completely change the tone and interpretation of the pre-existing instructions. The question is not "why bother with another text"" The question should be "is this new text authentic and accurate?"
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 12 by ochaye, posted 08-26-2009 2:36 PM | | ochaye has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 15 by ochaye, posted 08-26-2009 3:59 PM | | Rahvin has replied |
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ochaye
Member (Idle past 5259 days) Posts: 307 Joined: 03-08-2009
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Message 15 of 352 (521248)
08-26-2009 3:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 14 by Rahvin
08-26-2009 2:54 PM
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'The question is not "why bother with another text""' It's my question. Maybe the OP will not find it awkward, and can answer it in a fashion that will be intellectually acceptable.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 14 by Rahvin, posted 08-26-2009 2:54 PM | | Rahvin has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 21 by Rahvin, posted 08-26-2009 4:42 PM | | ochaye has not replied | | | Message 269 by ochaye, posted 11-16-2009 8:45 AM | | ochaye has not replied |
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