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Author Topic:   Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings?
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 16 of 373 (594704)
12-04-2010 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phage0070
12-04-2010 5:21 PM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
So belief in gods doesn't in itself constitute belief in supernature as far as you are concerned?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Phage0070, posted 12-04-2010 5:21 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Phage0070, posted 12-04-2010 5:45 PM Straggler has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 373 (594705)
12-04-2010 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Straggler
12-04-2010 5:32 PM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
Straggler writes:
So belief in gods doesn't in itself constitute belief in supernature as far as you are concerned?
Not necessarily. The distinction is if you believe that god to be a part of nature or separate from nature.
Of course you could use the secondary definition of supernatural which is "of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or attributed to god or a deity," but then you would be scratching your head over ghosts and magic curses not being supernatural.
Basically what I am trying to avoid is a instance like when a "god" is defined to be someone who has obtained a level of self control and peace with themselves to the point of divesting themselves of desire and dissatisfaction. Then when this completely mortal person shifts a cup of tea from one side of the table to another, such an act would be technically "supernatural" (attributed to a god).
I think that its much more reasonable to differentiate belief in supernature and belief in nature directly, rather then by adding caveats for gods or spirits just so we can call belief in unicorns supernatural and belief in atomic positively charged pudding natural.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Straggler, posted 12-04-2010 5:32 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Straggler, posted 12-04-2010 6:06 PM Phage0070 has replied

frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 18 of 373 (594706)
12-04-2010 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Straggler
12-04-2010 2:55 PM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
Well for the woman worship and men worship yust google and see what you get on google , King worship well the emperor in rome was worshiped as a god he got offerings and such though i doubt maney belived that he had supernatural powers. And for none supernatural animal worship look at the dogs who inhereted millions.
Admitevly it is a bit diferent then worship then worsihping a supernatural deity, cause when you do you ask for things you cannot get and expect that it can snap its finger and get it for you, by none supernatural worship things are placed on a very high pedastool with no supernatural atachments.

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 Message 12 by Straggler, posted 12-04-2010 2:55 PM Straggler has not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 19 of 373 (594708)
12-04-2010 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phage0070
12-04-2010 5:45 PM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
Phage writes:
Straggler writes:
So belief in gods doesn't in itself constitute belief in supernature as far as you are concerned?
Not necessarily.
Then regardless of whether I agree with it or not I am not sure how useful your distinction is in this thread. In the unlikely event that we ever discover animals explicitly demonstrating belief in gods of some sort (shrines, idols that sort of thing) I think the answer to the question being asked in this thread would be - Yes.
Quibbling over whether their gods were supernatural or not by the terms you have defined doesn't seem that relevant.
Phage writes:
The distinction is if you believe that god to be a part of nature or separate from nature.
I think supernatural (broadly) means something that is neither derived from nor subject to natural laws and which is thus materially inexplicable. And gods are (broadly) supernatural conscious beings who are envisaged to have power over some aspect of reality.
1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) a supernatural being, who is worshipped as the controller of some part of the universe or some aspect of life in the world or is the personification of some force Related adj divine
Phage writes:
Basically what I am trying to avoid is a instance like when a "god" is defined to be someone who has obtained a level of self control and peace with themselves to the point of divesting themselves of desire and dissatisfaction.
I am not sure that is too much of a concern in the case of examining whether animals exhibit signs of supernatural belief.
Phage writes:
I think that its much more reasonable to differentiate belief in supernature and belief in nature directly, rather then by adding caveats for gods or spirits just so we can call belief in unicorns supernatural and belief in atomic positively charged pudding natural.
I don't see how the plum pudding model of the atom could ever be described as a supernatural claim.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

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 Message 17 by Phage0070, posted 12-04-2010 5:45 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Phage0070, posted 12-04-2010 7:02 PM Straggler has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 373 (594711)
12-04-2010 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Straggler
12-04-2010 6:06 PM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
Straggler writes:
Then regardless of whether I agree with it or not I am not sure how useful your distinction is in this thread.
Fair enough, but then as I have taken great pains to express, if you are going to be using a different criteria it would greatly aid the discussion if you would define what exactly constitutes a supernatural belief. Otherwise people won't know what you or anyone else is talking about.
As you said quibbling over whether their gods were supernatural or not may not be relevant, but surely that would lead to quibbling over if they should be considered gods. What exactly are we discussing? If animals believe in "supernatural beings" I should hope. So one of the very first steps should be to develop a clear definition of what a supernatural being *is* before we get too far ahead of ourselves.
So, in the context of this thread, what criteria need to be met to be considered belief in a supernatural being?
Straggler writes:
I think supernatural (broadly) means something that is neither derived from nor subject to natural laws and which is thus materially inexplicable. And gods are (broadly) supernatural conscious beings who are envisaged to have power over some aspect of reality.
Ok, sure. But you still run into exactly the distinction I was talking about. What if someone believes that fire is the effect of various fire spirits? It isn't that these fire spirits are not derived or subject to natural laws; the person believes that natural laws allow fire spirits to exist and perhaps dictate how they may operate (wood feeds them, wind aids them, water kills them). Fire spirits are the material explanation of fire, and are as natural as squirrels.
By extension a fire spirit cannot be a god as it is not supernatural, even if the person's tribe were to worship a "Father Fire" figure in exactly the same manner others might worship a "god of the Hearth".
Straggler writes:
I am not sure that is too much of a concern in the case of examining whether animals exhibit signs of supernatural belief.
But what if we have an ape which waves a small crafted figure of a squirrel at some trees before beginning to harvest food for the day. Are we to draw a distinction between the ape thinking that doing so will directly influence the squirrels to aid in the harvest, or a plea to the "Great Squirrel in the Sky-Canopy" to provide a bountiful harvest?
Straggler writes:
I don't see how the plum pudding model of the atom could ever be described as a supernatural claim.
Right, and I'm not arguing that it should be. But what exactly is the difference between this attempt at an explanation and a different attempt that claimed positively charged pixies carried the electrons around? Are we going to base this distinction entirely on a cultural association of some inaccurate explanations of reality being supernatural and others not, or are we going to lay out a consistent criteria?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Straggler, posted 12-04-2010 6:06 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Straggler, posted 12-04-2010 7:26 PM Phage0070 has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 21 of 373 (594714)
12-04-2010 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phage0070
12-04-2010 7:02 PM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
With regard to animals and their beliefs all we have, in the absence of communication, is comparison of animal behaviour with human behaviour. Where we see animals behaving in ways that are directly comparable to humans exhibiting belief in supernatural beings we can consider the possibility that animals are doing something similar.
Subtle distinctions between gods and beings that are metaphysically supernatural by the rather unique definitions you are advocating just don't seem that relevant.
Phage writes:
So, in the context of this thread, what criteria need to be met to be considered belief in a supernatural being?
Look if we even get to the stage where there is any evidence to suggest that animals might believe in such things then we can quibble over what exactly is meant by "supernatural being". But let's establish whether there is even a case to be made for the possibility before we get bogged down in detailed definitions.
Why does every single thread in this place have to end up as an exercise in "define your terms" tedium?
Phage on the plum pudding model of the atom writes:
But what exactly is the difference between this attempt at an explanation and a different attempt that claimed positively charged pixies carried the electrons around?
One is able to be materially investigated and the other isn't.

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 Message 20 by Phage0070, posted 12-04-2010 7:02 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Phage0070, posted 12-04-2010 7:52 PM Straggler has replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 22 of 373 (594720)
12-04-2010 7:45 PM


Cat owners, have you ever had the sense that your cat is worshipping you? All the cats I've ever had always brought back animal sacrifice to me.

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Phage0070, posted 12-04-2010 7:54 PM Taz has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 373 (594722)
12-04-2010 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Straggler
12-04-2010 7:26 PM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
Straggler writes:
Where we see animals behaving in ways that are directly comparable to humans exhibiting belief in supernatural beings we can consider the possibility that animals are doing something similar.
Which is why I pointed out the importance of making sure our definition of "supernatural" meshes with our observation of humans, such as with my "self control" example which you dismissed as not being a concern. Since we are to base our determination of animals from our position on humans, it is necessary to have a cohesive and comprehensive definition of what constitutes belief in supernatural beings for humans if we are to hope for anything close to that for animals.
Straggler writes:
Look if we even get to the stage where there is any evidence to suggest that animals might believe in such things then we can quibble over what exactly is meant by "supernatural being". But let's establish whether there is even a case to be made for the possibility before we get bogged down in detailed definitions.
No, lets decide what we are looking for before deciding that we have found it, or not, and then later arguing over what it is we found. How can we find evidence in support of belief in something when we don't even know what it is we are looking for evidence about? Much less what form that evidence might take?
Straggler writes:
Why does every single thread in this place have to end up as an exercise in "define your terms" tedium?
Because *sometimes* terms are an important thing to know! Surely this hasn't completely escaped your notice in your time here. But if you are just after a quick answer, I will give you two:
No, animals do not exhibit belief in supernatural beings.
Yes, animals do exhibit belief in supernatural beings.
Both of these answers are based off of incompatible definitions of what constitutes belief in supernatural beings, which haven't been bothered to be explained or reconciled because you are being too much of a prat to bother with such trivialities.
Straggler writes:
One is able to be materially investigated and the other isn't.
But you can! These pixies were not defined as being undetectable, and regardless the research that proves the positive charged thingies are concentrated in an extremely dense nucleus contradicts them being out carrying the electrons around.
More importantly, here is another criteria you have offered for differentiating supernatural beliefs from natural ones. Unfortunately your example of belief in Vulcan *can* be materially investigated so it doesn't constitute belief in a supernatural being. Is that meshing with your preconceived ideas, because it seems that it wouldn't.
Now let me recount my view of the thread so far:
You: Do animals believe in supernatural beings?
Me: What sort of beliefs of an animal would qualify, or what behaviors would indicate such beliefs?
You: Easy, we can just compare to the behaviors and by extension beliefs of humans!
Me: Ok, but what human beliefs and by extension behaviors constitute belief in supernatural beings?
You: Arrg, stop complicating things and just answer the question!
Now I haven't even addressed the radical leaps of logic between linking human beliefs to human behaviors to animal behaviors to animal beliefs. I have simply offered what I consider to be a cohesive criteria of distinguishing a supernatural belief both in humans and in animals. Admittedly that criteria may be difficult to apply, and I asked for your input considering you started the thread. But if you are going to continue to provide definitions that don't even accurately represent your own views as expressed in this very thread, I can't see any way to provide a meaningful answer!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Straggler, posted 12-04-2010 7:26 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Straggler, posted 12-05-2010 6:22 AM Phage0070 has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 373 (594723)
12-04-2010 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Taz
12-04-2010 7:45 PM


Ahh, but does your cat believe you are supernatural?

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 Message 22 by Taz, posted 12-04-2010 7:45 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Taz, posted 12-04-2010 9:54 PM Phage0070 has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 25 of 373 (594733)
12-04-2010 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phage0070
12-04-2010 7:54 PM


All my animals believe I am god. Where else do they think their food come from?

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 Message 24 by Phage0070, posted 12-04-2010 7:54 PM Phage0070 has not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 373 (594737)
12-04-2010 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
12-01-2010 3:32 PM


Most Likely
Do animals exhibit belief in supernatural beings?
Likely. To my cat, I am God Two-Legs who brings food to the bowl from the magical bag within the mystical closet.
If they do is this evidence in favour of the actual existence of supernatural beings?
Of course not!
Or does it point to the evolutionary origins and causes of human belief in supernatural beings?
Perhaps.
Jon

Check out Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 12-01-2010 3:32 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Straggler, posted 12-05-2010 6:32 AM Jon has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 27 of 373 (594755)
12-05-2010 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Phage0070
12-04-2010 7:52 PM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
Given that you evidently find the use of the term "supernatural" so objectionable without it first being tied down to within an inch of it's existence I suggest that you approach this thread from the perspective of identifying any indications of religious behaviour (in the broadest sense of the phrase) in animals.
And before you ask me to define "religious behaviour" here is what I mean by a broad definition of religion: "having or showing belief in and reverence for a deity".
For heavens sake how many detailed definitions of what is meant by "supernatural" does EvC need? And in the unlikely event that we find evidence of animals exhibiting belief in a Thor-like-god-of-thunder being are we really going to start squabbling over whether or not this qualifies as supernatural in the abstract metaphysical sense you are advocating as necessary?
Given the remarkable nature of such a discovery and it's possible implications - Who cares whether it meets your strict and rather unique definition of "supernatural" or not?
Phage writes:
No, lets decide what we are looking for before deciding that we have found it, or not, and then later arguing over what it is we found. How can we find evidence in support of belief in something when we don't even know what it is we are looking for evidence about? Much less what form that evidence might take?
No. Let's find some potentially relevant examples and then discuss whether or not they are indicative of supernatural belief in animals.
Given the sparsity of such examples and the speculative nature of the whole topic this seems a far more productive way forwards than providing highly detailed definitions only to realise afterwards that this a complete waste of time because there is no evidence for anything even close to that which has been defined.
So - What real life examples are there of animals exhibiting behaviour that is comparable to human religious behaviour and which could be indicative of similar beliefs in animals?
That is the question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Phage0070, posted 12-04-2010 7:52 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Phage0070, posted 12-05-2010 11:48 AM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 28 of 373 (594758)
12-05-2010 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Jon
12-04-2010 11:00 PM


Re: Most Likely
Straggler writes:
Do animals exhibit belief in supernatural beings?
Jon writes:
Likely. To my cat, I am God Two-Legs who brings food to the bowl from the magical bag within the mystical closet.
What indications do you have that your cat thinks you are a supernatural being rather than just a rather gullible two legged source of food?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Jon, posted 12-04-2010 11:00 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Jon, posted 12-05-2010 11:10 AM Straggler has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 373 (594811)
12-05-2010 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Straggler
12-05-2010 6:32 AM


Re: Most Likely
What indications do you have that your cat thinks you are a supernatural being rather than just a rather gullible two legged source of food?
She bows to me each morning in order that I feed her.
Jon

Check out Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Straggler, posted 12-05-2010 6:32 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by frako, posted 12-05-2010 11:13 AM Jon has seen this message but not replied
 Message 31 by Straggler, posted 12-05-2010 11:24 AM Jon has replied
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frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 30 of 373 (594812)
12-05-2010 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Jon
12-05-2010 11:10 AM


Re: Most Likely
She bows to me each morning in order that I feed her.
Jon
Are you sure she does not think she is a god and the bow mens that you have the privilage of giving her food.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Jon, posted 12-05-2010 11:10 AM Jon has seen this message but not replied

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