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Author Topic:   Jesus: Why I believe He was a failure.
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 136 of 427 (541945)
01-06-2010 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by purpledawn
01-06-2010 7:45 AM


Re: Useless Genealogies
it doesnt make the geneology useless at all. Jesus was still of the tribe of Judah of who it was said
Genesis 49:8As for you, Judah, your brothers will laud you...10The scepter will not turn aside from Judah, neither the commander’s staff from between his feet, until Shi′loh comes; and to him the obedience of the peoples will belong.
The Messiah only needed to come from the tribe of Judah...which he did.
purpledawn writes:
Since they turned away from the God of Abraham and served other gods, they and their descendants lost the right to the throne. No more guarantees. Nowhere does it say that if they screwed up then the promise refers to a heavenly throne or temple.
The deal for the indefinite kingdom was broken. They blew it!
of course they blew it
why do you think the temple solomon built was completely destroyed in 607bce?
But Gods promise to Abraham, Issac and Jacob was still sure and his promise to bring a deliverer was still going to happen. The line of kings stopped as Ezekiel said Ez 21.27 A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him.
But this didnt mean that God was suddenly going to abandon his plan to bring a Messiah to save mankind. The Messiah was a promise from God way back in the Garden of Eden. The progression of the prophecies are seen throughout the entire bible and you really need to know them all...not just one.
Just as the generations of Isreal changed over the centuries , so did the progression of Messianic prophecies...you cant just pick one and conclude you know how this messianic prophecy should unfold.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by purpledawn, posted 01-06-2010 7:45 AM purpledawn has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 137 of 427 (541950)
01-07-2010 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Brian
01-06-2010 1:45 PM


Re: The mind of a fundy
Brian writes:
Okay peg, God has told Nathan to tell David this covenant.
You are saying it is not Solomon, the first person I have ever seen claim this BTW.
He is telling David that when he dies God will establish the kingdom of David's successor, and who will that be, the one who builds the Temple.
Who built the Temple referred to here Peg?
You left out an important party of the prophecy... and I shall certainly establish the throne of his kingdom firmly forever.
Was Solomons throne established forever? No. His unfaithfulness and the unfaithfulness of his sons ruled him out of having his 'throne established forever'. So we understand that this has to be a dual prophecy. Yes, Solomon was the one to build the temple....but he didnt build the temple that this prophecy is pointing to.
This prophecy is about the 'indefinitely lasting' one that resided with God in the heavens...and i'll show you why. Daniel 7:13 shows that it was going to be a kingdom located with God...where is God located? Heaven.
I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin
how could a physical ruler gain access to God, the 'Ancient of Days'?
No human could have such access...it is not possible for flesh to inhabit the heavens. So if this ruler is to be up 'close before that one' then he must be in the same form as God...he must be a spirit.
2ndly, the prophecy shows that ALL nations will serve him. A ruler in jerusalem is not going to be able to rule the entire world and have all the nations serve him.
3rdly, his rulership is 'indefinitely lasting'. How long can a physical man rule for ? 40, 50 years...then what? He gets old and dies and there goes the 'indefinitely lasting rulership' This is also why the prophecy cannot be speaking of Solomon.
perhaps you want it to be speaking of Solomon because it fits with your view that Jesus was a failure. But if you dont understand this prophecy, how can you possible really know if Jesus was a failure?
First, understand the prophecies, then perhaps you will be in a better position to judge and make an informed decision.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Brian, posted 01-06-2010 1:45 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Brian, posted 01-07-2010 2:53 AM Peg has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 138 of 427 (541960)
01-07-2010 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Iblis
01-06-2010 3:31 PM


Re: authentic pen, part deux
Oh well mystery solved!
Jesus was concieved out of wedlock to a poor Jewish woman who had slept with a Roman soldier. He probably buggered off to Egypt where he learned a few con tricks, came back and conned people. His followers, who were too embarrassed to admit they had been hoodwinked, stole His body, made up some ridiculous stories about Him that the local uneducated people swallowed up, and hey presto we have a Messiah.
The thing is, all joking aside, this evidence can make for a better historically plausible case than the gospels do for Jesus!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Iblis, posted 01-06-2010 3:31 PM Iblis has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 139 of 427 (541961)
01-07-2010 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Peg
01-07-2010 12:48 AM


Re: The mind of a fundy
Who is God referring to when He said it is the one who shall build a house for my name?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Peg, posted 01-07-2010 12:48 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Peg, posted 01-07-2010 5:49 AM Brian has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 140 of 427 (541971)
01-07-2010 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Brian
01-07-2010 2:53 AM


Re: The mind of a fundy
Brian writes:
Who is God referring to when He said it is the one who shall build a house for my name?
forget the building of the bricks and motar of the temple....David sat on the throne without there having a temple existing. So the temple is not the important thing.
The question you should be asking is, Was Solomon the one who was installed as a permanent, everlasting heir to throne of David?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Brian, posted 01-07-2010 2:53 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by purpledawn, posted 01-07-2010 9:41 AM Peg has replied
 Message 144 by Brian, posted 01-07-2010 1:46 PM Peg has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 141 of 427 (542000)
01-07-2010 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Peg
01-06-2010 11:56 PM


Until Shiloh Comes
quote:
it doesnt make the geneology useless at all. Jesus was still of the tribe of Judah of who it was said
Genesis 49:8 As for you, Judah, your brothers will laud you...10 The scepter will not turn aside from Judah, neither the commander’s staff from between his feet, until Shi′loh comes; and to him the obedience of the peoples will belong.
The Messiah only needed to come from the tribe of Judah...which he did.
Even if Shiloh refers to the messiah, the verse isn't saying that the messiah must come from the tribe of Judah. If the messiah was from Judah, then the "rod" of leadership wouldn't be leaving Judah; which is what the verse is saying. The new leadership will not be from the tribe of Judah.
So you've still thrown Jesus out of the running.
quote:
But this didnt mean that God was suddenly going to abandon his plan to bring a Messiah to save mankind. The Messiah was a promise from God way back in the Garden of Eden. The progression of the prophecies are seen throughout the entire bible and you really need to know them all...not just one.
No the messiah was not a promise back in the Garden of Eden. The Garden of Eden is a story that does not contain a messianic prophecy.
quote:
Just as the generations of Isreal changed over the centuries , so did the progression of Messianic prophecies...you cant just pick one and conclude you know how this messianic prophecy should unfold.
Exactly!! God promised saviors when the people needed them. They all weren't necessarily pointing to one individual messiah. That's why what we know of Jesus doesn't fit with the actual prophecies, as opposed to the one liners pulled out to fit with Jesus/Christian Dogma.
Jesus doesn't match to any full prophecy in the OT.
Edited by purpledawn, : Change ID

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Peg, posted 01-06-2010 11:56 PM Peg has not replied

  
Brad H
Member (Idle past 4954 days)
Posts: 81
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 142 of 427 (542003)
01-07-2010 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Brian
01-06-2010 3:13 PM


Re: Hello
You do know that this Josephus reference is one of the best known forgeries in biblical studies? I don’t think anyone accepts this as a genuine part of Josephus’ writings.
Hi Brian, thank you for your reply. I am aware that there is some controversy concerning one of the two passages known as the Testimonium Flavianum or the "TF"passage. But I think you are mistaken about it not being very well accepted. My understanding is that scholars just believe that early Christian copyists embellished small portions of the passage and that it is not an all out forgery. One top Josephus scholar named Louis H. Feldman, says that the TF passage "has been almost universally acknowledged" by scholars. See "Josephus," Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pages 990-91.
Don’t you find it strange that Josephus writes screeds of texts about nondescript characters yet he limits the mention of his messiah to a few obscure sentences?
No I agree with the scolars that the portion that has Josephus refering to Jesus as the Messiah is the portion which was obviously embellished by the copyists. Obviously the TF has a few Christian add ons that no Jew would have ever said, like "he was the Christ" and "he appeared to them alive again the third day." But I understand that the majority of scholars conclude most of the TF to be authentic.
Eh no they haven’t! Josephus has made a lot of errors in his writings, they are rife with anachronisms for a start, plus Josephus makes so many mistakes when referring to the Old testament it is difficult to believe he ever read it.
I didn't say he was flawless Brian. I just meant he was generally accurate with his reports on the war.
Well the Annals were written around 116 CE, so that is almost one hundred years after Jesus died, ample time for the myths to settle in. But this still doesn’t mean Jesus did anything, all it means is that there were people who believed He did certain things.
To the contrary, this is evidence that belief in the resurrection and deity of Jesus came out of the first century and was not just myth that crept in, in the later centuries. I don't think myths form and take hold that fast. Take for example the myths that formed about Alexander the Great. The two biographies that historians consider generally myth free were written close to 400 years after the fact. It wasn't until 5 centuries after his death that the myths began to develop.
But there are references from the second century (and maybe earlier) that refuted the claims made for Jesus.
Celsus, for example makes this claim:
I'm not sure why you referenced a late second century writer as a contemporary to the occurrences of the early first century? This is not really applicable to any purpose that I know of.
My only point to all of this was to demonstrate that your opening comment to this thread where you stated
Well the ONLY record of the life of Jesus is the text of the New Testament and of other biblical texts
was incorrect. I believe I have well achieved this goal.
regards
Brad

I would rather inspire one, than impress a thousand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Brian, posted 01-06-2010 3:13 PM Brian has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 143 of 427 (542017)
01-07-2010 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Peg
01-07-2010 5:49 AM


Everlasting Heir Busted
quote:
The question you should be asking is, Was Solomon the one who was installed as a permanent, everlasting heir to throne of David?
Why would that be the question, when I clearly showed in Message 131 that the everlasting part is contingent upon behavior?
You also agreed in your response that they lost that guarantee due to behavior.
I also showed in that message, through scripture, that Solomon was the one referred to.

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Peg, posted 01-07-2010 5:49 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Peg, posted 01-13-2010 11:46 PM purpledawn has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 144 of 427 (542068)
01-07-2010 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Peg
01-07-2010 5:49 AM


Am I correct?
I just want to ask a simple question.
Is it your belief that the Nathan prophecy in 2 Samuel 7 is not a reference to Solomon?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Peg, posted 01-07-2010 5:49 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Peg, posted 01-07-2010 10:40 PM Brian has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 145 of 427 (542151)
01-07-2010 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Brian
01-07-2010 1:46 PM


Re: Am I correct?
you seem to have missed my answer
The prophecy you are reading comes in two parts.
the first is that Davids offspring would build a temple, the 2nd is that his seed will rule on his throne indefinately
Solomon was to be the builder temple, but another decendent would be the indefinitely lasting ruler of Davids throne.
if you cant see that from the verse you are reading, then I cant help you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Brian, posted 01-07-2010 1:46 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by PaulK, posted 01-08-2010 3:26 AM Peg has replied
 Message 147 by Brian, posted 01-08-2010 8:25 AM Peg has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 146 of 427 (542175)
01-08-2010 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Peg
01-07-2010 10:40 PM


Re: Am I correct?
quote:
Solomon was to be the builder temple, but another decendent would be the indefinitely lasting ruler of Davids throne.
if you cant see that from the verse you are reading, then I cant help you.
Peg, are you using some translation that actually makes this distinction ?
Presumably you mean 2 Samuel 7:13
NASB
13"He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
Clearly the same person.
NIV
13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever
Again, the same person
KJV
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
Again, the same person.
Which Bible are you using and what does it say ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Peg, posted 01-07-2010 10:40 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Peg, posted 01-13-2010 11:57 PM PaulK has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 147 of 427 (542189)
01-08-2010 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Peg
01-07-2010 10:40 PM


Re: Am I correct?
you seem to have missed my answer
No, I read your answer but it is so unbelievable that I have asked for clarification. I thought I had misread some of it.
The prophecy you are reading comes in two parts.
the first is that Davids offspring would build a temple, the 2nd is that his seed will rule on his throne indefinately
I can't believe I am having to go through this!
Look at part of the prophecy.
When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom.
When David is dead his offspring will succeed him, a son that came from David's body, a biological son. This son will have the throne of his kingdom established forever. There is no other reading there as it clearly says that it is the offspring from David's body the one who succeeds David who will have the throne of his kingdom established forever.
Now who is this successor to be, well we are told....
He is the one who will build a house for my Name,
The house for me Name is the Temple and Solomon the son of David succeeded David, and built the Temple.
Then we are told:
and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
The establishment of throne of his kingdom forever is clearly speaking of the person who will build the Temple. 'AND I will....' this is the same person Peg, no amount of ducking and diving can change that, and as has already been pointed out to you there are other parts of the Bible that support this.
There's no other person even hinted at in that passage Peg, no matter how you wish to twist things, there is only one person referred to in that passage.
if you cant see that from the verse you are reading, then I cant help you.
I cannot see it Peg because it is not even hinted at.
At least be honest with yourself.
I know what you WANT it so say, but sadly it does not say anything like you would want it to.
Keep going though, your doing your case far more harm than I ever could.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Peg, posted 01-07-2010 10:40 PM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Buzsaw, posted 01-09-2010 6:55 PM Brian has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 427 (542398)
01-09-2010 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Brian
01-08-2010 8:25 AM


Re: Am I correct?
Peg message 145 writes:
you seem to have missed my answer
The prophecy you are reading comes in two parts.
the first is that Davids offspring would build a temple, the 2nd is that his seed will rule on his throne indefinately
Solomon was to be the builder temple, but another decendent would be the indefinitely lasting ruler of Davids throne.
if you cant see that from the verse you are reading, then I cant help you.
Brian writes:
I can't believe I am having to go through this!
Look at part of the prophecy.
When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom.
When David is dead his offspring will succeed him, a son that came from David's body, a biological son. This son will have the throne of his kingdom established forever. There is no other reading there as it clearly says that it is the offspring from David's body the one who succeeds David who will have the throne of his kingdom established forever.
Now who is this successor to be, well we are told....
He is the one who will build a house for my Name,
The house for me Name is the Temple and Solomon the son of David succeeded David, and built the Temple.
Then we are told:
and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
The establishment of throne of his kingdom forever is clearly speaking of the person who will build the Temple. 'AND I will....' this is the same person Peg, no amount of ducking and diving can change that, and as has already been pointed out to you there are other parts of the Bible that support this.
Brian, here's where you err. Yes, Solomon was to build the temple but the throne of the temple Solomon built did not last forever. Thus one must conclude that the term throne that would last forever had a messianic conotation which corroborates with other prophets that messiah's throne would be located at the same location as that on which Solomon's temporal throne was. As per numerous other prophets, the throne of messiah would be forever.
Brian writes:
There's no other person even hinted at in that passage Peg, no matter how you wish to twist things, there is only one person referred to in that passage.
Oh yes there is, Brian. It's just that you, as usual, refuse to corroborate the relevant data. Your MO has consistently been to mine out quotes here and there out of at large context so as to satisfy your preconceived missconceptions.
That the location of David's forever throne would be at Jerusalem and on the ancient Temple Mount is significant, relative to the phenomenal restoration of the regathering of the Jews to their homeland, Israel since 1948 when the restored nation was established. It is also significant relative to the fulfillment of prophecies such as Zechariah 12:1-3: (ASV)
The burden of the word of Jehovah concerning Israel. Thus saith Jehovah, who stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him:2 behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of reeling unto all the peoples round about, and upon Judah also shall it be in the siege against Jerusalem.3 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all the peoples; all that burden themselves with it shall be sore wounded; and all the nations of the earth shall be gathered together against it.
Wake up, world, and smell the messianic Armageddon coffee! Observe the evidence, ye science minded skeptics!
Edited by Buzsaw, : fix quotes

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Brian, posted 01-08-2010 8:25 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 168 by Brian, posted 01-11-2010 8:16 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 149 of 427 (542461)
01-10-2010 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Buzsaw
01-09-2010 6:55 PM


Why Change Meaning?
quote:
Brian, here's where you err. Yes, Solomon was to build the temple but the throne of the temple Solomon built did not last forever. Thus one must conclude that the term throne that would last forever had a messianic conotation which corroborates with other prophets that messiah's throne would be located at the same location as that on which Solomon's temporal throne was. As per numerous other prophets, the throne of messiah would be forever.
The forever was contingent upon behavior. Since David's descendants didn't behave they lost the promise. That prophecy/promise ended. Contract broken.
When a contract is broken the consequences then apply, we don't go back and change the nature of the contract.
The Book of Kings was supposedly written after the destruction of the temple. The writer already knew David's line wouldn't reign forever and that the temple wouldn't last forever; but the writer didn't change the contract to a heavenly one.
The Books of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles were all written after the fact while in exile if not after.
The Jews didn't need a messiah until after they had lost their kingdom and were exiled and oppressed.
The promise made to David in the Book of Samuel has nothing to do with the messiah and is not a messianic prophecy.
Even if you wanted to carry the promise forward, Peg already rendered the genealogies useless. One is through the wrong son and the second is through a cursed line. Even the promise from Israel concerning Judah doesn't fit the bill.
The text does not support the idea of a heavenly throne instead of an earthly one.
Edited by purpledawn, : Wrong ID

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Buzsaw, posted 01-09-2010 6:55 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-10-2010 11:03 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 150 of 427 (542500)
01-10-2010 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by purpledawn
01-10-2010 7:30 AM


Re: Why Change Meaning?
Admin writes
The text does not support the idea of a heavenly throne instead of an earthly one.
While I , Buzzsaw and Peg do not agree on all the details in such matters, we all agree that God and inspiration is in charge of these matters and that a spiritual kingdom of some sort is contemplated in the entirity of passages. Now watch, the idiocy which disregards this fact, while arguing from a positon and a book repleat with such supernatural matters, trying at the sametime to make a position for the text to make it fit a stricly human theory, is simply ludicrous beyond belief.
Secondly, the text more than supports a spiritual kingdom, eternal in character and nature. If one can look at a simple passage and understand it in the context of God and eternal purposes, example, I challenged Brian to demonstrate how in Isa 9:6-7, these statements could be refering to ANY MAN.
"Mighty God", "The everlasting father", etc, etc. At a glance any Jew would have understood this to mean God, it should be obvious that it is refering to God, specifically in the nature of Christ. Only a blind eye and humanistic nonsense would ignore such evidence.
Speaking of David throne and about God in the same context he writes
"and to establish it with judgement and with justice from henceforth FOREVER"
Show me in anyother passage where any Jewish writer in the scriptures ever refered to a man with such designations, it would be blasphemeous
It takes a total disregard for and a complete burying of ones head in the sand, to not see the hand of God in such matters, from atleast, a biblical perspective.
When a person views and understands the scriptures for the purpose for which they were intended, spiritual matters from the foundation of the world, all of the seeming problems go away
here is a simple question. If God is involved in such matters, as it is clearly stated and indicated from the text (Bible) the humanist derives his conclusions out of, is it possible that Christ fulfilled such matters?
The forever was contingent upon behavior. Since David's descendants didn't behave they lost the promise. That prophecy/promise ended. Contract broken.
When a contract is broken the consequences then apply, we don't go back and change the nature of the contract.
But here is the point you are missing, while they were punished god made certain PERPETUAL PROMISES to and about them, which were ofcourse eternal and physical in nature
1. "Jehovah will bring thee, and thy king whom thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation that thou hast not
known, thou nor thy fathers; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone. And thou shalt become
an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all the peoples whither Jehovah shall lead thee
away "(Deuteronomy 28:36-37).
2. "And Jehovah will scatter thee among all peoples, from the one end of the earth even unto the other
end of the earth; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou nor thy fathers,
even wood and stone. And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, and there shall be no rest for the
sole of thy foot: but Jehovah will give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and pining of soul;
and thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear night and day, and shalt have no assurance
of thy life" (Deuteronomy 28:64-66).
3. "And you will I scatter among the nations, and I will draw out the sword after you: and your land shall
be desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.
And yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, neither will I abhor
them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them; for I am Jehovah their God" (Leviticus
26:33,44).
4. "For I am with thee, saith Jehovah, to save thee: for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I
have scattered thee, but I will not make a full end of thee; but I will correct thee in measure, and will in
no wise leave thee unpunished" (Jeremiah 30:11).
5. "If these ordinances depart from before me, saith Jehovah, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from
being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith Jehovah: If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations
of the earth searched out beneath, then will I also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have
done, saith Jehovah" (Jeremiah 31:36-37; see also Jeremiah 46:27-28).
6. "Behold, the eyes of the Lord Jehovah are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the
face of the earth; save that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith Jehovah. For, lo, I will
command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all the nations, like as grain is sifted in a sieve, yet
shall not the least kernel fall upon the earth" (Amos 9:8-9).
There was always an eternal plan and notice how specifically these very prophecies, while not refering directly to Christ WERE and ARE being fulfilled
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by purpledawn, posted 01-10-2010 7:30 AM purpledawn has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by PaulK, posted 01-10-2010 12:28 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied
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