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Author | Topic: How did Adam and Eve know good from evil? | |||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4955 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
hotjer writes: Exodus 21:7-11 "If a man sells his daughter as a servant..." The Bible explicitly talks about sexual relationships between children and adults. Enyoj God's morality! Can you provide the reference which shows that the 'daughters' spoken of here refer to minors? Because even elderly ladies were called 'daughters' I am a daughter and i am 35 years old. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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killinghurts Member (Idle past 5019 days) Posts: 150 Joined: |
Elderly or minors, it's not morally okay to sell people. This just another example of how archaic and out of touch christianity is.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4955 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
killinghurts writes: Elderly or minors, it's not morally okay to sell people. This just another example of how archaic and out of touch christianity is. so why do humans still do it? And not only in christian countries is it still practiced. You cant blame christianity for it.the porn industry is full of people who have sold themselves the prostitution rings are often found to have slave 'workers' the big corporations willingly use child slave labor to make their products slavery is a human invention...its the result of independent thinking, not God. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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killinghurts Member (Idle past 5019 days) Posts: 150 Joined: |
"Peg" writes:
so why do humans still do it?
Probably for a multitude of reasons - profit, slavery, prostitution... what exactly is your point here? That's okay to do it because everyone else does?
"Peg" writes:
And not only in christian countries is it still practiced. You cant blame christianity for it.
Why not? Christianity teaches the bible. The bible is taught as the source of morality and the Bible says it OK to sell people, right? You somehow try to justify this bible passage by saying "how do you know they weren't grown women being sold?" I say WHO CARES? I say, NOONE should be sold. Full stop. That bible passage is morally wrong, face the facts and admit you are defending the indefensible.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4955 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
killinghurts writes: Probably for a multitude of reasons - profit, slavery, prostitution... what exactly is your point here? That's okay to do it because everyone else does? no, the point is that it was around long before the bible and it was being practiced by people who did not know the God of the bible. So before you want to blame christianity for slavery, just think about that.
killinghurts writes: That bible passage is morally wrong, face the facts and admit you are defending the indefensible. thats what free will is all about... God has not interfered with mankinds choices because mankind chose independence. They think they can do a good job of ruling the world so he is letting them have a go at it. Perhaps he is hoping that we come to the conclusion that slavery is a bad thing on our own...we obviously havnt come to that conclusion yet. We are slow learners it seems. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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killinghurts Member (Idle past 5019 days) Posts: 150 Joined: |
"Peg" writes: no, the point is that it was around long before the bible and it was being practiced by people who did not know the God of the bible. So before you want to blame christianity for slavery, just think about that.
Okay I have thought about it... Now you're saying because it's been around before the bible it's okay for the bible to condone it. It's still not right to sell people. No one should have the right to sell people. The bible appears to condone it, as the passage says... "..if you sell your daughter.." What gives? Does that teaching condone the sale of people against their will or does it not?
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Peg Member (Idle past 4955 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
killinghurts writes: Does that teaching condone the sale of people against their will or does it not? among the isrealites, God had put a lot of restrictions and regulations on a practice that they had been doing for a long time before he came on the scene So, either God forces humans to live under his rules, or he has allowed independence from his rules. It cannot be both. Mankind are independent and therefore we are not living under Gods laws. If we were, the world we would see would be as his will expresses it:
The will of God is this writes:
Just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more ... But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace. The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.Psalm 37:10, 11, 29.Isaiah11:9 the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea. Isaiah 33:24; 35:5, 6 No resident will say: ‘I am sick.’... At that time the eyes of the blind ones will be opened, and the very ears of the deaf ones will be unstopped. At that time the lame one will climb up just as a stag does, and the tongue of the speechless one will cry out in gladness. Isaiah 65:21, 22 They will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat their fruitage. They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating. Micah 4:4 they will actually sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree, and there will be no one making them tremble. Isaiah 35:1, 6 The wilderness and the waterless region will exult, and the desert plain will be joyful and blossom as the saffron. ... In the wilderness waters will have burst out, and torrents in the desert plain. Psalm 72:16 There will come to be plenty of grain on the earth; on the top of the mountains there will be an overflow. Rev 21:3 Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away. Psalm 145:16 You [God] are opening your hand and satisfying the desire of every living thing. Isaiah 14:7; 65:17, 18 I am creating new heavens [a new heavenly government over mankind] and a new earth [a righteous human society]; and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart. But exult, you people, and be joyful forever in what I am creating. The whole earth has come to rest, has become free of disturbance. People have become cheerful with joyful cries. That is the world that God wants for mankind ... no mention of slavery in there, only freedom and peace and care.
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killinghurts Member (Idle past 5019 days) Posts: 150 Joined: |
"Peg" writes: among the isrealites, God had put a lot of restrictions and regulations on a practice that they had been doing for a long time before he came on the scene So, either God forces humans to live under his rules, or he has allowed independence from his rules. It cannot be both. Mankind are independent and therefore we are not living under Gods laws.
Perhaps I should rephrase my question as you seem to be incapable of answering it. Am I right in concluding, as an independent human the following: a) The bible is the source of all good morals, andb) the bible says: "... if you sell your daughter..." c) it's okay to sell my daughter. Edited by killinghurts, : format
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Peg Member (Idle past 4955 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
killinghurts writes: Perhaps I should rephrase my question if you cannot understand my explanation, then you dont need to rephrase your question.
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killinghurts Member (Idle past 5019 days) Posts: 150 Joined: |
"Peg" writes:
if you cannot understand my explanation, then you dont need to rephrase your question.
I understand your explanation, but the explanation was not the answer to my question. It was mindless jabber, an obvious attempt to avoid the question. So now I am left to assume you cannot answer my question because you are simply too afraid to question your own belief system. I won't hold this against you, it's not an easy thing to wake up an realize your perfect world is not so perfect after all.
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killinghurts Member (Idle past 5019 days) Posts: 150 Joined: |
quote: Since Peg is incapable of answering this question I put it to others in this thread. Anyone?
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Peg Member (Idle past 4955 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
killinghurts writes: I understand your explanation, but the explanation was not the answer to my question. It was mindless jabber, an obvious attempt to avoid the question. your question is not really a question...it is an accusation. slavery was practiced by mankind, not God. He did condone it just as he condones all other immoral acts that humans want to perpetrate. But he wont condone them indefinately. He will put an end to them entirely by putting an end to the people who practice them....this he promises in no uncertain terms. Then when he does that im sure you'll accuse him of forcing his opinions on us and being a tryant of some sort or another. Meh. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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hotjer Member (Idle past 4571 days) Posts: 113 From: Denmark Joined: |
My assumption that Adam and Eve are mentally very childish is consistent with the story and.... the world today. It is not somekind of silly assumption. Even if they had a adult body, they could still be mentally childish. To call them man and woman is also related to their Hebrew name.
They felt ashame, they did not think "holy cra... this is the worst thing evah". so to call it "tget viewed it as perfectly bad" is an assumption. Anyways you missed the point. Let me clarify: They started to know about good and evil and became like God; as I said then good could be something... physical good about sex and evil the evil stuff you can do about sex. These thouhgts are very consistent with the rest of the text since... the Genesis talk about reproduction and nakedness in this context. So they did become like God, but you know, humans are not perfect and might think about such evil thing as pleasure - sex without reproduction. My explanation here is not contradictionary. I assume on background of the text, that Adam end Eve share similiarities with childish behavior - mentally childish and that is in consistnt with the text. Why do you propose it; it is not like it is a bad explanation?
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Peg Member (Idle past 4955 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
hotjer writes: They started to know about good and evil and became like God but dont you see that the way they viewed their nakedness was the opposite to the way God viewed it? So how is it they obtained the knowledge of God? It wasnt Gods knowledge that they obtained...it was a different knowledge. Do you understand what im saying??
hotjer writes: Why do you propose it; it is not like it is a bad explanation? Its not a bad explanation but the account doesnt really mesh with it. Gen. 1:31 After that God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a sixth day. Gen 2:25 "And both of them continued to be naked, the man and his wife, and yet they did not become ashamed" Everything God had made, including Adam and Eve in their naked state, was very good according to God....and Adam and Eve were not ashamed of their nakedness. They only became ashamed after they had disobeyed God, so rather then obtain the knowledge of God, they obtained a new and very different type of knowledge.
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hotjer Member (Idle past 4571 days) Posts: 113 From: Denmark Joined: |
They become like Gods, they did not become God. Huge difference. They were seperated from God by dsiobeying him. Sorry that I wrote God and not Gods. Furthermore, I am not sure what you mean by "the knowledge of God". They did know of his existence. In any case the story would be more of a mess than it is now, if they become like God... by disobeying him?
So my answer is both yes and no. I am not sure what you are trying to say to me. I cannot see, however, why it should be a problem for this explanation if they obtained new knowledge. They did, they saw how they could use their sexual organs in bad ways. Very impressive but that is a whole other story. And about the daughter stuff....Genesis 19:31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man around here to lie with us, as is the custom all over the earth. They can both be young and old, but seriously, I would rather like to speak to your common sense. In was quite normal back in those day, that 9-14 years old girls/daughters were given away/married a man. Untill very recent years it was normal. It is not like a mysteria. and yes, I know their father was pretty old in this verse. But it was not an important point.
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