The Annual War over Christmas -- by christians

Wll in my country there are 2 typs of christmas trees the christian kind and the nonchristian kind. The christian kind has the stall jesus was borne under it usualy made out of moss and little figurines of sheppards and sheep and a baby boy....and a star on top of the tree.
The non christian kind has something elese on top like a pointiy thing or whatever, and no stall under it.

So you are proud of the fact that they lied about the birth of a mythical creature in order to steal pagan tradition? Wow the amazing mental gymnastics it must take to be a christian. For deluded christians, perhaps. but for the rest of us it has become a matter of tradition. No mystical zombies who require constant praise necessary.

Good morning Zen Deist, I agree, the church should not dictate to the state what the state must call a particular holiday celebration. Especially at the expense of excluding others who celebrate the season for different reasons. The residents of the state however should be able to express their desire to what the state does. I understand that the state wants to be p.c. (Not really my strong point by the way. I hate being p.c.) but how many other holiday traditions involve tree lighting? I ask out of ignorance actually. I just believe that you should call something what it is. If you are performing a tree lighting and none of the other cultures or traditions involve the lighting of a tree. Then why bother being p.c. about the name? You are already excluding these other cultures by performing a ceremony that is traditionally involved with Christmas.

Hi hooah212002, And the forecast here in RI is for rain and 40 degrees . . . looks at snowshoes . . . sighEnjoy.

Happy celebrations all on this celestial day.Enjoy.

But "what something is" evolves as cultures change. LinkTraditions evolve and adapt to the cultures in which they take place. Forcing this change might well (possibly understandably) upset those who consider their version of the tradition the "real" tradition.But adapting traditions to be include members of the culture in which they take place happens naturally anyway.

Hello Straggler, Agreed. That change is what the Christian push back is all about though. For years the majority of American culture and the traditions of those who celebrate Christmas, were for what is now being called a holiday tree to be called a Christmas tree. That is what most people are used to and what they want it to be called. Personally I don't care what you call it but I see why others may try to push back against a change in traditions that they don't agree with. My friend, who is a Wiccan, celebrates the solstice and Saturnalia. Still puts up a tree and calls it a Christmas tree, because that was the tradition that she is used to from when she was a child. I see why others want to refer to this time of the season as the holidays and for the most part I agree with them. For myself however. I have all types of friends in my life who celebrate differing holidays. I try to wish them a happy or merry insert whatever holiday they are celebrating here, instead of a watered down and generic happy holidays though.

Just saw a tree with decorations and some holly. Yep, still pagan.

Which communities think that tree decorating was invented by christians? But that's just because they got there first, because they were the oldest. Nowadays tho, we're not putting up christmas trees because were maintaining pagan rituals, we're doing it because christians adopted those rituals and injected Jesus into them. So the reason we have a christmas tree today, is because of the christians, ergo Jesus *IS* the reason for the season. (even tho he's not the source of the ritual)Its kinda funny tho, that on one hand we have that Jesus isn't really behind the christmas tree, and on the other hand we have not wanting to call it a christmas tree because Jesus is behind it

I looked behind mine. No Jesus.He's harder to find than people let on.

Sure. I get that. Overtly setting out to make change happen will inevitably upset the present occupiers of "the tradition" and cause a kickback from them.I guess my point is that change is inevitable. And those who consider themselves Paragons of the true tradition now will, in the future, look no different to those who practised earlier version of the tradiction.Traditions adapt and include or eventually die out. It's almost evolutionary in nature...... Fair enough. I'm not at all Christian but I am happy to celebrate Christmas in a generic cultural sense. And have no problem naming it as such. Some more stringent humanists I know insist on calling it "Yuletide" but frankly I think they are being a bit frikkin precious.Some Moslems I work with have been celebrating Christmas with us at work in terms of Christmas lunches, parties etc. and (bar one who refused to take any part at all) they don't see any problem with simply going with the cultural flow as long as it isn't overtly Christian worshipful in nature.

Hi again rueh, And yet they exist. I know of many people that have a holiday tree or a yule tree. I guess that also depends on how much you want the meaning of the name to change with the changing traditions and the way it is actually used.If you want "Christmas" to mean crass and rampant commercialism -- symbolized this year by Santa running to Target, for example, or by the "game on" adds for Best Buy, or car adds with a Santa salesman -- if you think presents under a tree are more important than other aspects of the season, say going to a Christ Mass, or family gatherings, then by all means call it Christmas . . .Curiously, I don't see that the "War on Christmas" is about defending the crass and rampant commercialism.In my mind the term "Christmas" is more under attack by it's indiscriminate use for an overblown season of crass and rampant commercialism than it is by calling the state tree a "Holiday Tree".Enjoy.

Of course not. It's about christians trying to lay claim to the time of year, crying about "taking jesus out of christmas" which was born out of people trying to more inclusive by saying "Happy Holidays" instead of Merry Christmas because this particular time of year signifies more than just the christian christmas. It us once again brought on by the christian persecution complex. FSM forbid we don't give christians special treatment and are inclusive of other traditions or cultures, that would be un-christian....

The term, Christmas, i.e. Christ-mass, literally implicates Eucharist or the Lord's supper/communion of the breaking of the bread and drinking the wine etc, commemorating the death of Jesus. How does that equate to the birth of Jesus???The timing of it has pagan origins. Nevertheless, I agree that some aspects of it can be applied to Christianity. I don't make a judgment call on that.The apostle Paul, in Colossians 2:16, said:
American Standard Version

quote:

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Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day:

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The Roman Emperor Constantine professed Christianity in the year 312? or so after he won a battle, before which he had an unusual revelation. I don't remember the specifics. He became the first pontifix maximus (pope), declaring that there should be only one religion. Thus he became ruler of both the only lawful church and the state/empire.So as to keep the peace in the empire he mingled some paganism into Christianity. For example, in 325, at the Council of Nicaea he persuaded those present that Easter should be celebrated by all as a holiday (holy day). This would suffice to placate both Christians and pagans since spring time was significant to some of the pagan gods as noted in the link.The link also explains why the sabbath was changed from the 7th day to Sunday, i.e. Sun-day, significant to sun worshipers. I've cited this to say that the precedence was early established in the RCC to adopt some paganism into Christianity.Again, however, as per Colossians 2:16 above, we are not to judge one another regarding which day is kept or whether any day is kept, on that count .The cut and decorated tree is referenced in the OT ancient times by the prophet, Jeremiah in chapter 10. It applied to pagan worship by pagans in the nations.In the 14th or 15th century it first began to be related to the RCC and later, gradually by protestants.Jeremiah 10:1-5

quote:

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Hear what the Lord says to you, O house of Israel. [2] This is what the Lord says: "Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the nations are terrified by them. [3] For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. [4] They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter. [5] Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good."

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My family has celebrated Christmas as a tradition. All of my relatives and my boys still do. I don't judge others on this count, as there are some aspects of it that can be applicable to Biblical doctrines.My wife and I have not had a tree for quite a few years now. For ourselves, we see it as something that God is not please with, as per the Jeremiah text.However, when we visit the boys or anyone else, we never bring it up or make an issue of it, unless it is something that is mutually discussed. We do exchange gifts and celebrate it, relating it to the birth of Jesus, though tis not really the season of his birth.I agree with Sun Deist and others who see it as related to paganism, more-so than Christianity. The same goes with Sun-day, and Easter, etc. All of our holiday (holy day) celebrations are pagan in origin, for that matter.Those who participated in the Cavediver vs Buzsaw Freeforall thread may have noticed that my final message was a season/Christmas message, in which I wished all Christians a blessed Christmas and to all a happy holiday season. (I extend the same greeting here to those who did not see it. ) Admittedly, the fact remains, that the timing of it relates more to paganism than to Christianity.To summarize, holiday/holy day more accurately applies to both pagans and Christians, in that it can be regarded by either as a holy day.

This sounds like something out of Jack Chick tracts. It's not historically accurate, and I know that you've been told that once already, you could have looked it up. The Emperor Constantine was not the first Pope. He was not ever a Pope. This is as loony as calling me the first astronaut.