Surrendering to Jesus/God is Not Biblical

To understand any writing you need to know 5 specific things.Who is speaking or writing?
Whom or about whom is he speaking or writing to?
What subject is he speaking or writing about?
When or about what time is he speaking or writing about?
Why, the reason or occasion for the speaking or writing?I was taught in journalism class that to write a good story you need to be able to answer all 5 of these questions.

I hear you truthlover. This is one time that I am going to have to say I don't agree with PD's conclusion. For the most part I enjoy looking passage to passage for deeper understanding, but this is not something that can be solved Biblically. It is up to the individual to decide if 'following' means surrendering. I think there is ample evidence that giving up one's own desires was recommended by Jesus.In all reality and all practicality, if I were to desire an inappropriate action, and gave this up because of love for God, I would have surrendered. I have surrendered to what I see as better. Is this really surrender? Is this not just doing what I would have done anyway? If you think along these lines you end up with Doddy's 'we can do what we please, but we can't change what pleases us to do'. This means that I will gain pleasure from following Jesus. Even when there is pain there is pleasure. It is not an easy thing to answer or explain. Perhaps the simple feeling of gain from doing the will of God implies that a person has already surrendered. They have already chosen to follow the doctor's orders, because they believe in the validity of the prescription. The only person who has 'given up control of their lives' is the one who does not follow the doctor's orders. They will 'rebel' whether they are lost or saved in body. They will rebel just because they can. If this is 'freedom' what is the opposite?Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

Only in "some" sense. Not in every sense.Soldiers are expected to obey their commanders and they are punished if they don't - but they are still expected to use their own initiative. And, of course, the term "surrender" has completely different connotations to a soldier.

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Edited by AdminPD, : Contents rendered invisible. If you must view the contents, use the peek button, but do not respond.

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What does that mean? Doesn't following someone else's commands mean giving up control in some sense? Especially if there's punishments for not following those commands?

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Exactly! What does that mean? What are they teaching when they tell people today to give up/surrender their life to God/Jesus?So have we given up control of our lives because we choose to follow our local laws, which have various consequences attached to them? (rhetorical question)Have we given up any control in our lives because we choose to follow the guidelines here at EvC which have consequences if we don't? (rhetorical question)When you take on a job and have to follow the company policies or bosses orders, have we given up control of our lives? (rhetorical question)I don't feel that I gave up control of my life when I joined the military. I took on a job which had specific rules and consequences if rules are not followed. If I didn't want to follow the rules, I wouldn't have joined the service.So I don't see that choosing to follow what we know of Jesus' teachings and commands, constitutes giving up control or power over my life. Choosing right behavior isn't giving up control, IMO.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

To an extent. To an extent. Ditto. It is, entirely. If all of the above deal only with certain portions of life, following God is giving up control entirely. it is giving up the freedom to do what you want ALL the time.

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Think about it. We are going to have free will. Jesus never took away free will. But if we freely decide to follow God's commands, we are freely choosing to do the right thing even when we don't want to. You may not call this surrender. I simply can't see what then would be considered surrender.

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Someone else made the comment of doing right when we don't want to, maybe it was you, but maybe that's why the term surrender.You look at Paul's scenerio as surrender, I see it as understanding. He came to understand that what he was doing was wrong. Jesus may have taken drastic measures to get his attention, but I don't get the impression from Paul's letters that he still wanted to kill Christians, but refrained only because he chose to follow Jesus.I guess if a person still wants to do wrong behavior, but does right behavior only because they decided to follow God's commands out of fear or desperation; then it would be a form of surrender. Kinda like when conquering nations impose their ways upon the conquered nations.To me that means that right behavior doesn't get "written on their hearts", but wrong behavior is. If that is true, then those people will always struggle and probably won't mature spiritually.Of course that means that people who naturally want to do what is right have no need to surrender or even have a need for God.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

The Christian is far from free of obligations. Some have situations which might make it appear so, but recall that the gospel has been spread abroad to all lands. This means that in lands where things are easy, there will be Christians, likewise where things aren't so easy.Time is also a factor. Peter's three-fold denial, was there no burden? The Christians who even now must meet in secret in lands where the Bible is banned, what of them? Have they no burden?Even in "better" places, persons have been disowned by parents for following Jesus. Is this not a burden?We know not our future. We know not what burdens shall come upon us. What you describe sounds more like "if I just agree to be a good person and stop sinning, can I be saved?" If you look at the price paid for salvation to be possible, how can you be reluctant to pitch in and do everything in your power to give God His "money's worth"? (sorry to use that term in this context)One thing I might add is that God never gives us any burden too great for us to bear. I can look it up if you'd like. He knows our limits and loves us.I'll also mention the example of Moses. Moses was very reluctant to do God's bidding. (see Exodus 3-4) But God persuaded him, and as a result God had "excuses" to bless and reward Moses. God is always looking for an "excuse" to bless his children. Thanks to Thomas, we all get a blessing who believe without seeing!

Well, that is the paradox isn't it? None of us is going to be perfect, none of us is always going to want to do the right thing. Feel like it, that is. Yet, the higher our degree of surrender to the will of God, the more we will desire to do what is right even when we don't feel like it.Use your doctor analogy. Use the 12 steps program; You already know that a person has to admit they are wrong. Next step, surrender mentally to the right way. Give up your 'own' way. Understanding comes first, surrender second. I am not at all sure that looking for clues that Paul wanted to kill Christians while he preached Christianity is a good use of time, but there is plenty of reason to believe Paul stiil wanted to live as the 'old man'. Or, at least, that he knew of the temptation to do so. The vast body of his discourses have to do with combatting the desires of the flesh. When a person has completely surrendered, the way of the conquerer becomes his way. It doesn't matter if he be willing or not. The point of spirituality is to get to the place where you are in agreement with the conqueror even when you don't understand him. You live as he pleases. Surrender has nothing to do with wanting, save for wanting to surrender. That is the only thing that God will not control. How many of these people can you find? Who naturally wants to do what is right? If a person gets so lucky as to have this state of mind, doesn't that mean that they have already found God?Maybe some of the language used in religion has gone poetic or harsh sounding. I still would not say that you have made a case that is strong enough for me to believe that following God is not allowing him to control a life. It is not forcible control that is true, but the whole concept of surrender is IMO entirely Biblical.

The light burden comments dealt with what Jesus supposedly said in Matthew 11, which some feel deals with the oppressive obervance of the Jewish precepts of the time. I wasn't commenting on whether it was a true statement. Jesus' expectations were easier than dealing with the fence that was put around the Torah.

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What you describe sounds more like "if I just agree to be a good person and stop sinning, can I be saved?"

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I'm also not talking about salvation.

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One thing I might add is that God never gives us any burden too great for us to bear. I can look it up if you'd like. He knows our limits and loves us.

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According to Paul, not Jesus or God:

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I'll also mention the example of Moses. Moses was very reluctant to do God's bidding. (see Exodus 3-4) But God persuaded him, and as a result God had "excuses" to bless and reward Moses.

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This story isn't dealing with right behavior or wrong behavior, but a specific job God gave to Moses.When it comes to the teaching on surrendering one's life, I'm thinking of the "average Joe".

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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You already know that a person has to admit they are wrong. Next step, surrender mentally to the right way. Give up your 'own' way.

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I understand those programs, but I think it is understanding that one is wrong, not just admitting.If someone admits that they are wrong, not because they understand or agree that their actions are wrong; then yes, they would have to surrender to what someone has told them is right and give up their own way even if they don't understand and only do it to avoid the consequences. But how long will that mindset stick?Ultimately they have to understand and agree that their actions are wrong or not beneficial and then choose to follow the correct or beneficial behavior. In this instance the mindset has a better chance of sticking.

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The point of spirituality is to get to the place where you are in agreement with the conqueror even when you don't understand him.

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I disagree obviously. IMO, spirituality is understanding what behavior is beneficial for the individual and the civilization they reside in. I don't feel that spirituality grows well in a conquered mentality.

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How many of these people can you find? Who naturally wants to do what is right? If a person gets so lucky as to have this state of mind, doesn't that mean that they have already found God?

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They are out there. It doesn't necessarily mean they have found God.Even those who need more time to get to that state of mind don't necessarily need God to do it.As Jesus supposedly said in Matthew 9:12:

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I still would not say that you have made a case that is strong enough for me to believe that following God is not allowing him to control a life. It is not forcible control that is true, but the whole concept of surrender is IMO entirely Biblical.

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My contention in the OP was: I think Jesus' statements to come and follow him are along the lines of yielding to a better course of action, but not giving up power or control over one's life. I don't see that his disciples demonstrated that they had given up power or control over their lives.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

I am still looking for this practical example of what a person who has 'given up control' of their lives will look like. In relation to God that is, not a physical ruler.

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I am still looking for this practical example of what a person who has 'given up control' of their lives will look like. In relation to God that is, not a physical ruler.

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So am I.If it is only refraining from wrong behavior when you really desire to do the wrong behavior, then I don't see it as a concrete example of giving control of one's life over to God since this state of mind can be achieved in various religions and by people unaware or who don't believe in God.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Personally, all of this seems a wild reach by you.This statement of yours really doesn't make any sense when you are talking about a guy who said "deny yourself, take up your cross daily, and come after me" and "he who seeks to save his soul will lose it, but he who loses it for my sake will gain it to life eternal."Sure, you're not giving up control of your life to obey EVCForum guidelines, because EVCForum is not your life. Christ, however, is exactly asking for control of your life. "Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father in heaven."We're not talking about obeying a few rules at school or some guidelines on an internet web site. We are talking about God asking people to love him with all their strength, mind, soul, and heart.And yes, when you have to follow commands for your whole life, you are giving up control of your life and surrendering in some sense. That is why the Christians are called disciples about 58 times in the Book of Acts, but only called believers once. They are primarily disciples, those who obey God."For this reason Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the living and the dead."Really, to suggest that God and Christ are not asking for surrender is to create a fantasy reading of the Bible. People do that all the time, but really, it's not very convincing.

So were we:Error 404 (Not Found)!!1We are collecting people who are willing to give up control of their lives to God. Since there were thousands of competing churches and competing Bible interpretations but hardly any example of love or unity, we started asking God whether he was really able to produce the unity that would argue that Christ was sent by God (Jn 17:20-23).We asked him to take control of our lives, show us what to do, and let us be his church--a real church, not just a club meeting a couple times a week, but that glorious thing described in the Scriptures, especially in Acts.He did. It doesn't look much at all like we expected it would, but it's more wonderful than we could have imagined and more powerful than we could have dreamed.Anyway, I believe Rose Creek Village is a practical example of what a people (rather than just a person) who have given up control of their lives will look like. No limits, just surrender to God to the extent that he would ask of us.