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Author Topic:   Discovery or Ignorance: The Choice Is yours?
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 16 of 402 (473805)
07-03-2008 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by John 10:10
07-02-2008 11:50 PM


The lie is all yours in that the theory of evolution is and always will be just a theory
Of course it's a theory. What else would it be?
And in science, what is of more use than a powerful theory? Such a theory explains existing data and makes predictions about future data.
I really don't understand creationists who try to denigrate the theory of evolution by claiming "it's just a theory."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by John 10:10, posted 07-02-2008 11:50 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Brian, posted 07-03-2008 3:24 AM Coyote has not replied
 Message 19 by dwise1, posted 07-03-2008 3:51 AM Coyote has not replied
 Message 21 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-03-2008 4:21 AM Coyote has not replied
 Message 24 by John 10:10, posted 07-03-2008 9:31 AM Coyote has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 17 of 402 (473814)
07-03-2008 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by John 10:10
07-02-2008 10:10 PM


From the understanding that most scientists now have that the universe suddenly came into existance from something smaller than a pin head; i.e. nothing.
Something smaller than a pinhead isn't nothing, there are lots of things that are smaller than a pinhead.
That's what convinces IDists/Creationists this is a sensible place to start?
I have no idea, that's why I asked you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by John 10:10, posted 07-02-2008 10:10 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by John 10:10, posted 07-03-2008 9:37 AM Brian has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 18 of 402 (473815)
07-03-2008 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Coyote
07-03-2008 12:46 AM


I really don't understand creationists who try to denigrate the theory of evolution by claiming "it's just a theory."
I can think of lots of reasons.
1. Willful ignorance
2. Laziness
3. Indoctrination
4. Fear
5. Poor core skills
6. Cognitive dissonance
7. Parroting their heroes' soundbites
8. Strawclutching
I have also noticed a general lack of credible academic qualifications in people who keep saying this. You would think that once they have been told what the word 'theory' actually means, then they wouldn't need to be told again, well maybe twice at the most should be enough for any reasonably intelligent adult to grasp the meaning of a simple word.
I'm just waiting for someone to say "evolution is a theory not a fact!"

This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 19 of 402 (473819)
07-03-2008 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Coyote
07-03-2008 12:46 AM


{qsI really don't understand creationists who try to denigrate the theory of evolution by claiming "it's just a theory." [/qs]
The answer(s) is/are so obvious.
1. They have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. As soon as a creationist utters this remark, you know that.
2. They are engaging in deliberate deception. Because they are engaging in "semantic shifting" as they substitute the real scientific meaning of "theory" with the street definition of "SWAG" ("some wild-ass guess").
OK, creationists believe they can only defend their religion by either blathering nonsense about things that they know nothing about, or by deliberately deceiving their target audience (fellow believers and those whom they wish to convert). So what does that say about their religion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Coyote, posted 07-03-2008 12:46 AM Coyote has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 20 of 402 (473821)
07-03-2008 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by John 10:10
07-02-2008 11:50 PM


The lie is all yours in that the theory of evolution is and always will be just a theory, and a very bad one at that.
And yet if you try telling that to scientists, they'll just laugh at you, strange, isn't it? It's almost as if they know something you don't.
---
As I have pointed out, you are not going to deceive anyone with this nonsense who has not been deceived already. You are not, for example, going to make me forget all the evidence that proves the theory correct simply by telling me that the theory of evolution is "very bad". To achieve that, you would have to open my skull and amputate large portions of my brain until I know as little about science as a creationist.
That's one great advantage evolutionists have over creationists, (which goes along with being right) it is in principle possible for us to educate a creationist, though I confess that the occurence is rather rare. But it is not possible for you to make us as ignorant as yourselves without actual surgery.
By the way, I suggest that if you are going to use the word "theory" you should find out what it means.
Here, let me help you:
Theory: In science, a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses. --- US National Academy of Sciences
Note the words "well-substantiated".
If evolutionists can reasonably believe that the universe came from nothing ...
I have never met any "evolutionist" who believes any such thing. Have you?
... it's certainly not unreasonable to believe that only Creator God could do this.
What on earth does the existence of God or your fantasies about the universe "coming from nothing" have to do with evolution?
(Hint: the answer to this question is "sweet damn-all".)
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by John 10:10, posted 07-02-2008 11:50 PM John 10:10 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 21 of 402 (473822)
07-03-2008 4:21 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Coyote
07-03-2008 12:46 AM


I really don't understand creationists who try to denigrate the theory of evolution by claiming "it's just a theory."
It's because they learn to recite words without ever wondering what they mean.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Coyote, posted 07-03-2008 12:46 AM Coyote has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 402 (473835)
07-03-2008 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by John 10:10
07-02-2008 10:00 PM


science - a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing (proving) the operation of general laws
What body of facts or truths does ID/Creo deal with, how do they arrange them, and what general laws do they show the operation of?
'Cause I ain't seein' nuthin'
It seems that you have supported my position, that what ID/Creos are doing isn't science, even according to a dictionary definition.
IDists/Creationists allow this principle to guide their pursuit of true science,
Bullshit!
Then why do they spend all their time attacking the opposing theory rather than supporting their own?
but not theories such as evolution which can never be proven.
Well, according to your theory, God must be not allowing you discover this about his creation, right?
quote:
Answer: IDists/Creationists start with understanding that God, the Intelligent Designer, is the Creator. Then we proceed to discover as much about God's creation as He allows us to discover. To the IDists/Creationists, this is what science is all about, proving cause and effect in everything between micro to macro space.
How do you know the difference between when you're wrong about a theory because God is not allowing you to discover it and when the theory really is wrong? Because you're wrong about the ID/Creo theory being correct and it seems that God is not allowing you to accept evolution (which is the truth). So, how do you know when you're right?

ABE:
FYI, the Big Bang Theory does not say that the Universe came from nothing.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : see ABE:
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : typo

Science fails to recognize the single most potent element of human existence.
Letting the reigns go to the unfolding is faith, faith, faith, faith.
Science has failed our world.
Science has failed our Mother Earth.
-System of a Down, "Science"
He who makes a beast out of himself, gets rid of the pain of being a man.
-Avenged Sevenfold, "Bat Country"

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 Message 10 by John 10:10, posted 07-02-2008 10:00 PM John 10:10 has not replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 23 of 402 (473843)
07-03-2008 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Organicmachination
07-03-2008 12:02 AM


Evolutionists have fossils, few bones, and similarities among various species, but no proof that evolution is the answer as to how life began and multiplied to millions of various plant and animal life forms.
True science for the IDists/Creationists is discovering the wonders of God's creation, learning the cause and effect therein, and applying this to the good of mankind.
Edited by John 10:10, : mispelling

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 85 by Straggler, posted 07-04-2008 8:36 AM John 10:10 has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 24 of 402 (473844)
07-03-2008 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Coyote
07-03-2008 12:46 AM


What is of more use than a powerful theory?
A powerful "fact" is more useful than any theory.
Facts are what make scientists understand the world we live in, not theories.
When theories become facts, then you will have something to hang your hat on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Coyote, posted 07-03-2008 12:46 AM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Coyote, posted 07-03-2008 9:43 AM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 31 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-03-2008 9:59 AM John 10:10 has replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 25 of 402 (473845)
07-03-2008 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by John 10:10
07-03-2008 9:25 AM


Evolutionists have fossils, few bones, and similarities among various species, but no proof that evolution is the answer as to how life began and multiplied to millions of various plant and animal life forms.
Basic science lesson:
The theory of evolution does not address the origin of life. It is only by the convoluted logic of creationists that this is held to be the case, and repeated as often as possible. This seems to follow the twisted logic that "evolution -- anything that we disagree with."
No theory in science, whether it is the theory of gravitation, germ theory, the theory of evolution or countless others -- no theory is ever proved. A theory in any scientific field is a well-substantiated explanation; it is in fact, the best explanation available. It accounts for all or nearly all facts, and is not contradicted by any facts. And it allows successful predictions to be made.
The theory of evolution (incorporating common descent) is not contradicted by any known data. It explains known data and allows predictions to be made.
The notion of special creation as espoused by creationists (incorporating as it does all of the bible), on the other hand, is supported by no facts, is contracted by a huge number of facts, and does not allow predictions to be successfully made. It is religion, not science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by John 10:10, posted 07-03-2008 9:25 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by John 10:10, posted 07-03-2008 9:54 AM Coyote has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 26 of 402 (473846)
07-03-2008 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Brian
07-03-2008 3:11 AM


Maybe you feel comfortable believing that this universe could spring into existance from something smaller than a pinhead without a Creator, but I do not. It takes great faith, or deception, to have such a belief. One of us is certainly wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Brian, posted 07-03-2008 3:11 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 27 of 402 (473849)
07-03-2008 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by John 10:10
07-03-2008 9:31 AM


What is of more use than a powerful theory?
A powerful "fact" is more useful than any theory.
Facts are what make scientists understand the world we live in, not theories.
When theories become facts, then you will have something to hang your hat on.
You are entirely wrong. This explains it very clearly:
Piling up facts is not science--science is facts-and-theories. Facts alone have limited use and lack meaning: a valid theory organizes them into far greater usefulness.
A powerful theory not only embraces old facts and new but also discloses unsuspected facts.
Robert A. Heinlein 1980:480-481

This message is a reply to:
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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 28 of 402 (473852)
07-03-2008 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Coyote
07-03-2008 9:37 AM


True science deals with how things "really" work from cause to effect, not theories about how you think they may work.
The wonders of science that are useful take cause and effects that can be known to a high degree of accuracy and apply them to the good of mankind.
Show me one good thing teaching the theory of evolution of man has done for the good of mankind?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Coyote, posted 07-03-2008 9:37 AM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Coyote, posted 07-03-2008 9:58 AM John 10:10 has replied
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 29 of 402 (473853)
07-03-2008 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by John 10:10
07-03-2008 9:37 AM


Maybe you feel comfortable believing that this universe could spring into existance from something smaller than a pinhead without a Creator, but I do not.
You don't know what I believe, I was just pointing out the flaw in your claim.
It takes great faith, or deception, to have such a belief.
You mean more faith than believing a being you cannot prove exists created it from NOTHING. I'd say the BBists are two up on you before they start.
Anyway, do you mind answering the question?
Why would a scientist prefer to start with a god and then look for evidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by John 10:10, posted 07-03-2008 9:37 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 30 of 402 (473854)
07-03-2008 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by John 10:10
07-03-2008 9:54 AM


True science deals with how things "really" work from cause to effect, not theories about how you think they may work.
The wonders of science that are useful take cause and effects that can be known to a high degree of accuracy and apply them to the good of mankind.
Show me one good thing teaching the theory of evolution of man has done for the good of mankind?
Sounds like you should leave science to the scientists; they're the ones who are qualified to determine what science is and how it should work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by John 10:10, posted 07-03-2008 9:54 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
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