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Author Topic:   What if hobbit has a filling?
Jason777
Member (Idle past 4870 days)
Posts: 69
Joined: 11-08-2007


Message 1 of 24 (465296)
05-04-2008 10:03 PM


As many of you know the hobbit may show some evidence of a filling in one of its molars.Im not about to argue yes it is or no its not.I dont think it can be confirmed or not at this time.If its true what effect do you think it would have on the credibility of modern dating methods?And does anybody know which dating methods were used?

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Message 2 of 24 (465310)
05-05-2008 1:50 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Taz
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Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
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Message 3 of 24 (465312)
05-05-2008 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jason777
05-04-2008 10:03 PM


How the hell did this get promoted?
Could you please expand on this a little? Perhaps give us a link or two?

I'm trying to see things your way, but I can't put my head that far up my ass.

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Percy
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Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 4 of 24 (465338)
05-05-2008 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Taz
05-05-2008 1:52 AM


The hobbit he's referring to is the recent discovery of miniature hominid fossils, proposed formal name Homo floresiensis, see, for example, 'Hobbit' Fossil Likely Represents New Branch On Human Family Tree. There was one interpretation that a molar showed signs of containing a filling, but I don't know much about it.
--Percy

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 5 of 24 (465354)
05-05-2008 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Percy
05-05-2008 9:27 AM


Here you go.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/...563342-30417,00.html
University of Adelaide professor of biological anthropology and comparative anatomy Maciej Henneberg says in his new book, The Hobbit Trap, that a lower left molar had a filling, a claim that threatens to blow out of the water conjecture by the fossil's describers that the Hobbit is 18,000 years old.
Professor Brown said Professor Henneberg's claim was "complete lunacy".
"There is no factual support," Professor Brown said. "The molar tooth has no evidence of dental work of any sort and this can be demonstrated by examination of the tooth ... with photographic evidence, X-rays, CT scans."
Did the Flores Hobbit Have a Root Canal? - Scientific American
Charles Hildebolt, a paleoanthropologist at Washington University in St. Louis, has also been working on the Flores material and has obtained his own CT scans. "We think that it is highly unlikely that any type of filling material is in the mandibular left first molar," he said in an e-mail. "The defect in the mandibular left first molar does not have the appearance of a cavity preparation made by a dentist in that the defect is shallow, is nonretentive and is not extended in an apical direction interproximally. There is no indication of tooth decay in any of LB1's teeth."
He adds, "if for some reason, a temporary filling were placed in LB1's mandibular left first molar, we should be able to see some indication of it in the CT images, but we cannot--all that we can see is a defect that resembles other defects on LB1's teeth where the enamel has worn away and the dentine is exposed."
Edited by molbiogirl, : sciam link

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 6 of 24 (465355)
05-05-2008 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by molbiogirl
05-05-2008 11:27 AM


Another intersting link I found was John hawks' blog
Most interesting for the OP was this comment at the end:
All those things weigh against the hypothesis that this tooth has had dental work. And yet, there is something unusual about it, and this hypothesis should be absolutely trivial to test. The CT scan may be enough, although with its resolution I would guess that a radiograph may be more convincing. A simple look at the specimen would be enough. Or a direct radiocarbon date -- which despite the sampling of collagen for DNA testing, was never performed.
So, I would like to see the radiograph.
My emphasis... huh?

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Jason777
Member (Idle past 4870 days)
Posts: 69
Joined: 11-08-2007


Message 7 of 24 (465360)
05-05-2008 3:37 PM


It does appear to be just a crack in the tooth.IMO.And i did read an article by the scientist who did the ex-rays on it and he said its probabily just calcite(I think thats right)deposits that the fossil was found in.Although i may be completely wrong and it may be a filling.What im realy having a hard time with are the conclusions.Hobbit is a decendant of Homo erectus,Hobbit is a decendant of Astralopithicus,Hobbit is a modern human with microcephaly,Hobbit is an ape,Hobbit is a pygmy with bad teeth.Anyone willing to wager that its actually an extra-terrestrial?(hahaha).Perhaps a future DNA sample will finaly settle the matter.

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 8 of 24 (465363)
05-05-2008 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by cavediver
05-05-2008 11:42 AM


In a later blog post, John changed his mind about the CT of the filling.
Peter Brown refutes Flores filling claim - john hawks weblog
Brown's discussion includes high resolution photos of the specimen, the 3-D CT reconstruction featured in the Scientific American web story, and CT slices taken through the middle of the left and right teeth. I didn't think the 3-D CT slice was quite right to establish that the tooth was normally worn without question, since it cut through the buccal cusps which are unaltered in any event, but it does show a pulp cavity of normal dimensions for that area.
The slice taken through the centers of the left teeth, although a bit fuzzy (again, characteristic of the CT resolution), is much less equivocal: it shows a normal pulp cavity of equivalent dimensions to the right side and no evidence of alteration or drilling.
That's enough to convince me.
And I can't find any reports of the collagen anywhere.

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 9 of 24 (465368)
05-05-2008 9:56 PM


Regarding the questions on radiocarbon dating and DNA:
The photograph at the top of this thread shows some gorgeous teeth. Those should be suitable for both radiocarbon dating and DNA studies.
I understand the bone of the Hobbits is rather soft, but those teeth look just fine. Teeth seal the interior with enamel so as to preserve the softer material much better than is the case for the rest of the skeleton.

Replies to this message:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 10 of 24 (465376)
05-05-2008 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Coyote
05-05-2008 9:56 PM


DNA analysis might help, but prospects are gloomy. The site is hot and wet, perfect for destroying genetic material. There's been at least one effort to find DNA in hobbit bone, carried out in the lab of ancient DNA specialist Svante Pbo of the Max Planck Institute (Leipzig, Germany). It failed.
http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-doc...
I can't find anything on any other DNA tests. This test was done in 2006.

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 11 of 24 (465377)
05-05-2008 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by molbiogirl
05-05-2008 11:50 PM


The Max Planck folks are some of the best.
But I am still wondering why they didn't use a tooth. I've had good luck with the teeth I have submitted. The On Your Knees Cave specimen from southern Alaska was a tooth, and it returned usable mtDNA from 10,300 years.
The photo shows a whole mandible full of gorgeous molars!

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 12 of 24 (465378)
05-06-2008 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Coyote
05-05-2008 11:57 PM


Probably because of lack of $$$$$$$$$.

I'm trying to see things your way, but I can't put my head that far up my ass.

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 13 of 24 (465491)
05-07-2008 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Taz
05-06-2008 12:19 AM


Probably because of lack of $$$$$$$$$.
Actually, in relation to other studies, DNA and radiocarbon dating are not that expensive.
I am sure that any good research lab would sequence the Hobbit teeth for joint publication rights. If it had to be paid, the last sample of old bone I sent to a commercial lab was $1,500.
AMS radiocarbon dating of a tooth at one of the largest commercial labs would be under $700, counting the bone surcharge.
In terms of the interest and information potential, cost is not the problem. There must be some other reason a few of those gorgeous teeth have not been sent off for testing.

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 14 of 24 (465634)
05-08-2008 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Coyote
05-07-2008 12:50 PM


I can't say for sure, but it seems there's some squabbling over the bones. Let-me-test-them-no-you-can't-have-them sort of thing.

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teen4christ
Member (Idle past 5798 days)
Posts: 238
Joined: 01-15-2008


Message 15 of 24 (465637)
05-08-2008 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by molbiogirl
05-08-2008 7:41 PM


I say we cut the bones up to divide them among however many people who want to get their hands on them. King Solomon used the same solution and it worked out quite well. Both women were perfectly happy with their half of the baby. I'm sure it will work in this case also.

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