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Author Topic:   The "science" of Miracles
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 76 of 696 (825507)
12-15-2017 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Tangle
12-15-2017 12:00 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Tangle writes:
It's the fact that the thing is impossible that makes it a miracle.
That's clearly wrong. A lot of the events in the Bible that are labeled "miracles" are not impossible: crossing the Red Sea, healing the sick, feeding the multitude, etc.
Tangle writes:
... transubstantiation is not a miracle - wine did not turn to blood. But if it ever did in a reproducible and testable manner it would be a miracle.
If wine turned into blood in a reproducible and testable manner, it would not be a miracle. It would be a fact. It would be a process that we didn't understand before.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2017 12:00 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2017 4:12 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 77 of 696 (825511)
12-15-2017 1:04 PM


What IF?
ringo writes:
The important point is that if we know it's impossible, we also know it didn't happen...
You sure seem confident of human infallibility. There are a lot of things we don't know for sure...including what is and is not possible.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by ringo, posted 12-16-2017 10:50 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 78 of 696 (825520)
12-15-2017 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by jar
12-13-2017 11:16 AM


Re: How can there be such a "science" anyway?
jar writes:
The Conquest of Canaan did not happen.
The Exodus is a folk tale.
You seem to be in line with the modern minimalist branch of scholarship, which tends to dismiss the study of ancient language and culture. I find their approach and conclusions problematic. There are good scholarly reasons to believe that the Exodus and conquest really DID happen. See, for example, James Hoffmeier.
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 12-13-2017 11:16 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-15-2017 3:42 PM kbertsche has not replied
 Message 80 by PaulK, posted 12-15-2017 3:43 PM kbertsche has not replied
 Message 85 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 4:37 PM kbertsche has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 79 of 696 (825522)
12-15-2017 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by kbertsche
12-15-2017 3:14 PM


Re: How can there be such a "science" anyway?
There are good scholarly reasons to believe that the Exodus and conquest really DID happen. See, for example, James Hoffmeier.
What reasons does that book present?
Edited by New Cat's Eye, : typo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by kbertsche, posted 12-15-2017 3:14 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 80 of 696 (825523)
12-15-2017 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by kbertsche
12-15-2017 3:14 PM


Re: How can there be such a "science" anyway?
quote:
You seem to be in line with the modern minimalist branch of scholarship, which tends to dismiss the study of ancient language and culture.
By which you appear to mean archaeologists who tend to prefer the evidence provided by archaeology over legends written long after the real events (if any) that underly them.
quote:
I find their approach and conclusions problematic
Well obviously you find any honest investigation that clashes with the Bible stories to be problematic.
quote:
There are good scholarly reasons to believe that the Exodus and conquest really DID happen.
Then please produce some. Evidence of Israelites - or rather Canaanites who might be ancestors if the Israelites - in Egypt hardly counts. And that appears to be the main focus of Hoffmeiers book.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by kbertsche, posted 12-15-2017 3:14 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 81 of 696 (825525)
12-15-2017 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by ringo
12-15-2017 12:13 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
ringo writes:
A lot of the events in the Bible that are labeled "miracles" are not impossible: crossing the Red Sea, healing the sick, feeding the multitude, etc.[
They're all impossible in the way they're supposed to have been done.
If wine turned into blood in a reproducible and testable manner, it would not be a miracle. It would be a fact.
It would be an impossible fact.
It would be a process that we didn't understand before.
It would be an impossible process.
But enough, we both know what we mean and repetition is tedious.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 12-15-2017 12:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by ringo, posted 12-16-2017 10:41 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 82 of 696 (825526)
12-15-2017 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Faith
12-14-2017 6:33 PM


Re: How can there be such a "science" anyway?
Faith writes:
The gospels have been understood for two millennia to be honest accounts by honest people.
That's an assumption, not evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 12-14-2017 6:33 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 83 of 696 (825527)
12-15-2017 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Faith
12-14-2017 6:30 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Faith writes:
We're talking about something WITNESSED by people that doesn't happen to leave physical evidence.
It is ASSERTED WITHOUT EVIDENCE that people witnessed something. Stories don't become true because you write them down in a book.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 12-14-2017 6:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 12-15-2017 4:50 PM Taq has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 84 of 696 (825528)
12-15-2017 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by New Cat's Eye
12-15-2017 10:56 AM


Re: Definition Of Terms
NCE writes:
If it has happened then it wasn't impossible.
There's no point going beyond this because you're not accepting the concept of a miracle as it's defined. That's fine but to have this discussion at all, you have to allow that miracles are possible and that they defy natural laws.
If you can't do that, you're in a different debate.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-15-2017 10:56 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 4:38 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 91 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-15-2017 5:10 PM Tangle has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 696 (825529)
12-15-2017 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by kbertsche
12-15-2017 3:14 PM


Re: How can there be such a "science" anyway?
If there are good scholarly reasons to think either ever happened, you can bring them here. But a link certainly won't do it.
I've read Hoffmeier but never found anything, anything at all beyond speculative vague assertions that quite frankly seem unrelated to either the Exodus or the Conquest of Canaan.
I don't think anyone doubt or disputes that there was cultural exchanges between all of the civilizations of the area but what he asserts seems nothing more than a suggestion of influences throughout the reason, something no one ever disputed.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by kbertsche, posted 12-15-2017 3:14 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by kbertsche, posted 12-17-2017 8:08 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 86 of 696 (825530)
12-15-2017 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Tangle
12-15-2017 4:34 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Tangle writes:
That's fine but to have this discussion at all, you have to allow that miracles are possible and that they defy natural laws.
Not really. All we need to allow is that unexplained things happen that some people label as "a miracle".

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2017 4:34 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2017 4:44 PM jar has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 87 of 696 (825531)
12-15-2017 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by jar
12-15-2017 4:38 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Jar writes:
Not really. All we need to allow is that unexplained things happen that some people label as "a miracle".
Inferring that people are always mistaken is exactly the same as not allowing miracles as they're defined.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 4:38 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 4:52 PM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 88 of 696 (825533)
12-15-2017 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Taq
12-15-2017 4:31 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
We're talking about something WITNESSED by people that doesn't happen to leave physical evidence.
It is ASSERTED WITHOUT EVIDENCE that people witnessed something.
That is true. I am not going to play this "scholarship" game which is nothing but every kind of speculation designed to contradict traditional Christianity. Traditional Christianity requires belief in the gospels and all the other Biblical reports, and it has been through that belief that powerful benefits to the world have come, and millions have led faith-guided lives that only increase their belief. The evidence is in the history itself and the documents themselves, and I will not listen to the debunkery brigade.
abe: And from the previous post:
The gospels have been understood for two millennia to be honest accounts by honest people.
That's an assumption, not evidence.
It's actually experience-guided certainty, not assumption. The evidence has already been given many times, the trustworthiness of the gospel writer witnesses. Nobody deserves any more evidence since your rejection of what has been given is nothing but crabbed prejudice. The evidence is quite sufficient. You believe or you don't. That's what Jesus asked for: repent and believe.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Taq, posted 12-15-2017 4:31 PM Taq has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 89 of 696 (825534)
12-15-2017 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Tangle
12-15-2017 4:44 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
LOL
Too funny.
Tangle writes:
Inferring that people are always mistaken is exactly the same as not allowing miracles as they're defined.
And when someone actually infers that people are always mistaken maybe you should bring that up.
But it has absolutely nothing to do with anything I said.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2017 4:44 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2017 5:04 PM jar has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 90 of 696 (825535)
12-15-2017 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by jar
12-15-2017 4:52 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Jar writes:
Too funny.
Ah, there's the tell again.
Game over then.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 4:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 5:19 PM Tangle has replied

  
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