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Author Topic:   Problems with the Big Bang theory
DivineBeginning
Member (Idle past 6027 days)
Posts: 100
Joined: 11-16-2006


Message 44 of 303 (366395)
11-27-2006 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by 1.61803
02-17-2005 12:02 PM


Re: So the Big Bang never happened cuz Sog345 says so.
why don't you share some of the evidence you have that the big bang actually happened. Something cannot come from nothing. Something had to always be around. You cannot deny this. Please spare me the multi-dimensional garbage too. The universe is infinite, it always was and always will be. An infinite God created it. That is how it is infinite. There is such peace to know that a loving God created all that is around us, and not that we are here by chance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by 1.61803, posted 02-17-2005 12:02 PM 1.61803 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Chiroptera, posted 11-27-2006 9:51 PM DivineBeginning has not replied
 Message 46 by Phalanx, posted 11-28-2006 3:37 PM DivineBeginning has replied
 Message 61 by Coragyps, posted 11-28-2006 8:26 PM DivineBeginning has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 303 (366397)
11-27-2006 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by DivineBeginning
11-27-2006 9:45 PM


Re: So the Big Bang never happened cuz Sog345 says so.
That's telling him, DB!
Too bad, though, that the posts to which you are replying are several years old.

Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-27-2006 9:45 PM DivineBeginning has not replied

Phalanx
Member (Idle past 5712 days)
Posts: 31
From: Old Bridge, NJ, US
Joined: 10-12-2006


Message 46 of 303 (366547)
11-28-2006 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by DivineBeginning
11-27-2006 9:45 PM


Re: So the Big Bang never happened cuz Sog345 says so.
If you really wanted to know some of the evidence for the big-bang just crack open a 6th grade science text book. For all their faults, they hit the major points. As for the "multi-dimensional garbage", I'm not sure what you're specifically speaking of, but it seems to be a new idea from string theory. So, for all of you who keep saying, "but why did it ever 'decide' to expand?" your answer can be found there. Just another point of contention, the universe isn't necessarily infinite, unless you're speaking in terms of time. There are a couple of models of what our universe will do due to its expansion. The first being that it will continue expanding for eternity. The second, that the universe will reach a point where it will stop expanding and rebound bring itself back together.
So, if you really wanted to find some evidence of the big bang, I'd suggest hitting the library and cracking a textbook.

And the Ignorant shall fall to the Squirrels - Chip 2:54

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-27-2006 9:45 PM DivineBeginning has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-28-2006 7:15 PM Phalanx has not replied

DivineBeginning
Member (Idle past 6027 days)
Posts: 100
Joined: 11-16-2006


Message 47 of 303 (366598)
11-28-2006 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Phalanx
11-28-2006 3:37 PM


Re: So the Big Bang never happened cuz Sog345 says so.
You still didn't address my comment about something cannot come from nothing. There has to be something to "bang big", if you will, right? So where doest that "thing" come from? It's a really simple concept. If the universe always was, then by definition, it is infinite with respect to time. And if it is infinite, then the big bang theory implies that something arose from nothing all by itself. Does all this make sense? I am just curious as to how the founders of the big bang theory came to their conclusions without thinking about all this. Do you have any ideas? Where did the first particles of matter come from?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Phalanx, posted 11-28-2006 3:37 PM Phalanx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Chiroptera, posted 11-28-2006 7:26 PM DivineBeginning has replied
 Message 49 by JonF, posted 11-28-2006 7:29 PM DivineBeginning has replied
 Message 50 by Modulous, posted 11-28-2006 7:30 PM DivineBeginning has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 303 (366600)
11-28-2006 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by DivineBeginning
11-28-2006 7:15 PM


Re: So the Big Bang never happened cuz Sog345 says so.
quote:
ou still didn't address my comment about something cannot come from nothing.
Oh, I'll address this. How do we know that something cannot come from nothing?
Edited to add:
My apologies to Robin.
Edited by Chiroptera, : No reason given.

Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-28-2006 7:15 PM DivineBeginning has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-28-2006 7:59 PM Chiroptera has replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 49 of 303 (366602)
11-28-2006 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by DivineBeginning
11-28-2006 7:15 PM


Something and nothing
You still didn't address my comment about something cannot come from nothing. There has to be something to "bang big", if you will, right?
Maybe, maybe not. Unfortunately our common sense notions, derived from our limited experience, often turn out to be wrong when applied to something far out of the range of our experience. We don't directly see anything coming from nothing, the principle of conservation of energy is inviolate ... but when you look at the very small and the very large those rules change some. In particular, one of several speculations about "where it came from" is that it literally did come from nothing ... the average energy of the Universe may be zero (positive energy from mass, negative energy from gravitation) ... and the entire Universe may be a sort of quantum fluctuation on an incredibly large scale, all allowed by the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle but incredibly unlikely.
I don't know how seriously this idea is taken nowadays, and I don't know what the gamut of current speculation is, and I don't know what's currently the most likely candidate. People are thinking abut the question and trying to come up with testable hypotheses. It's difficult for many reasons.
But don't trust "common sense" in this matter. It'll lead you astray.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-28-2006 7:15 PM DivineBeginning has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-28-2006 8:07 PM JonF has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 50 of 303 (366603)
11-28-2006 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by DivineBeginning
11-28-2006 7:15 PM


where did all that energy come from?
You still didn't address my comment about something cannot come from nothing.
It seems reasonable, but there are two issues.
1. We don't know that.
2. The Big Bang doesn't postulate that something came from nothing, just that the universe used to be 'hotter' and 'denser'. If we consider space-time as a four dimensional object, and we look close to time=0 we get very hot and dense. Where this hotness and denseness came from is not really addressed by the Big Bang, and Relativity is unable to give an answer. More recent cosmology has been proposed to explain where the hotness and denseness came from, so you should probably consider those. The so called M-Theory for example - related to String Theory.
There are some great FAQs out there that answer, or attempt to answer, this very interesting question. Try 121 FAQs about Big Bang Cosmology for the answer to some of them. You might also like M-theory, the theory formerly known as Strings.
Hope that helps.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-28-2006 7:15 PM DivineBeginning has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-28-2006 8:09 PM Modulous has replied

DivineBeginning
Member (Idle past 6027 days)
Posts: 100
Joined: 11-16-2006


Message 51 of 303 (366613)
11-28-2006 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Chiroptera
11-28-2006 7:26 PM


Re: So the Big Bang never happened cuz Sog345 says so.
Show me proof that it can. Viable proof. Something that has been witnessed and documented? I don't think you can. Nothing has ever materialized from complete nothingness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Chiroptera, posted 11-28-2006 7:26 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Chiroptera, posted 11-28-2006 8:03 PM DivineBeginning has replied
 Message 118 by Jon, posted 12-05-2006 12:59 PM DivineBeginning has replied
 Message 119 by sidelined, posted 12-05-2006 6:27 PM DivineBeginning has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 303 (366616)
11-28-2006 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by DivineBeginning
11-28-2006 7:59 PM


Re: So the Big Bang never happened cuz Sog345 says so.
Why do I need to supply proof? I am merely considering it as one possibility among others; I don't know whether "something can come from nothing". But it is your argument that relies on the assertian that "something cannot come from nothing", so unless you can prove it, then it remains a possibility and so your argument fails.

Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-28-2006 7:59 PM DivineBeginning has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-28-2006 8:15 PM Chiroptera has not replied

DivineBeginning
Member (Idle past 6027 days)
Posts: 100
Joined: 11-16-2006


Message 53 of 303 (366617)
11-28-2006 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by JonF
11-28-2006 7:29 PM


Re: Something and nothing
First of all, it isn't a principle of conservation of energy, it's a one of the Laws of Thermodynamics. Second of all, your answer didn't really answer much. The universe being in a state of fluctuation doesn't explain how something can come from nothing. Lastly, common sense happens to be the best way to provoke good debates. Common sense, although it may not answer a lot of questions, can stimulate the though processes and maybe even help some people think a little more objectively.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by JonF, posted 11-28-2006 7:29 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Phalanx, posted 11-28-2006 8:15 PM DivineBeginning has replied
 Message 91 by JonF, posted 11-29-2006 3:31 PM DivineBeginning has replied

DivineBeginning
Member (Idle past 6027 days)
Posts: 100
Joined: 11-16-2006


Message 54 of 303 (366618)
11-28-2006 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Modulous
11-28-2006 7:30 PM


Re: where did all that energy come from?
It hasn't been proven. Nobody has seen anything materialize out of nothing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Modulous, posted 11-28-2006 7:30 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Modulous, posted 11-28-2006 8:22 PM DivineBeginning has not replied

DivineBeginning
Member (Idle past 6027 days)
Posts: 100
Joined: 11-16-2006


Message 55 of 303 (366621)
11-28-2006 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Chiroptera
11-28-2006 8:03 PM


Re: So the Big Bang never happened cuz Sog345 says so.
I wasn't arguing anything. I was just submitting a question. I was just curious. It's just that my question is being dodged. It has been dodged by so many for a long time. I cannot prove that matter cannot materialize out of nothing, but neither can anyone prove that it can, right? So here we are, at a stalemate because neither of our arguments can be proven.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Chiroptera, posted 11-28-2006 8:03 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Phalanx, posted 11-28-2006 8:19 PM DivineBeginning has replied

Phalanx
Member (Idle past 5712 days)
Posts: 31
From: Old Bridge, NJ, US
Joined: 10-12-2006


Message 56 of 303 (366622)
11-28-2006 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by DivineBeginning
11-28-2006 8:07 PM


Re: Something and nothing
I do believe the idea that the universe is a fluctuation is an explanation of how something can come from nothing. Holding that this is at all true, of which I'm not certain, then theoretically the universe could have just popped into existence. It just happens for the same reason that periodically you get something like a barrier jump. It's a principle of quantum mechanics. Although it is highly improbable it is well within the realm of the possible.
Edited by Phalanx, : Edited for grammar.

And the Ignorant shall fall to the Squirrels - Chip 2:54

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-28-2006 8:07 PM DivineBeginning has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-28-2006 8:17 PM Phalanx has not replied

DivineBeginning
Member (Idle past 6027 days)
Posts: 100
Joined: 11-16-2006


Message 57 of 303 (366624)
11-28-2006 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Phalanx
11-28-2006 8:15 PM


Re: Something and nothing
The universe could have just popped into existence? Ah come on. That's ridiculous!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Phalanx, posted 11-28-2006 8:15 PM Phalanx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Chiroptera, posted 11-28-2006 8:24 PM DivineBeginning has replied

Phalanx
Member (Idle past 5712 days)
Posts: 31
From: Old Bridge, NJ, US
Joined: 10-12-2006


Message 58 of 303 (366625)
11-28-2006 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by DivineBeginning
11-28-2006 8:15 PM


Re: So the Big Bang never happened cuz Sog345 says so.
By nothing, do you mean absolutely nothing, or just not from matter? Matter can be created from "nothing", think radiation from a black hole. Given enough energy, particles do just pop of out nowhere, in essence. Though, there is the energy required to make that happen, so they don't just pop out of nowhere.

And the Ignorant shall fall to the Squirrels - Chip 2:54

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-28-2006 8:15 PM DivineBeginning has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-28-2006 8:41 PM Phalanx has not replied
 Message 92 by JonF, posted 11-29-2006 3:34 PM Phalanx has not replied

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