Hi Faith-
Well, looks like we’ll have to wait for another thread to cover all the points from that last one.
I'm pondering starting another one.
So, focusing on this thread, we should first agree on what it is about. The opening post is too long and scattered to be a topic we should all stay on, so I propose the following:
Discussion point: Is there divinely ordained genetic degredation over the past 6,000 years, and is this divine retribution from the Christian God for failing to follow a universal law?
My answer to RickB above may clarify my thinking on this. I'd say the genetic degradation is an inference from the Fall, but that it's more the inevitable working out of a law of cause and effect than it is a straightforward divine retribution. That is, "the wages of sin is death" -- the more sin, the more death, and sin accumulates in the human race, and we do inherit it from our ancestors. We all inherit the original sin from Adam, and original sin is the inclination to sin, and individual sins accumulate since then. God's role has been more sustainer and protector in all this.
And by the way there is no such thing as a "Christian God." God is God. The Bible reveals many things about the true God. He's the God of all things, ruler of everything, including you.
There appear to me to be a number of reasons why this view disagrees with Christianity.
For one thing, according to Christianity and the Bible, following the law isn’t what’s important. At first it sounded like Faith was saying it was.
Of course it's important, it's the law that runs the universe, it's part of God's own nature, but because of disobedience we haven't the moral will to follow it and so fall farther into debt to it with every effort. This is why we need a Savior, which is what Christianity is about. But you can't understand the need for a Savior unless you understand the inexorable demands of the moral law upon us all and our complete inability to obey it in the right spirit since the Fall.
Faith wrote:
I would expect that there would still be people of extraordinary good health living here and there. If you want the spiritual explanation, it's all a matter of sin. Read the Book of Proverbs. Good health and long life are a matter of living according to God's Law.
And later .
I've been clear that I'm not talking about Biblical law alone. Biblical law is simply the codification of the universal moral law. All cultures have had their own recognition of this law.
These appear to support the idea that the genetic degredation is due to failing to follow a universal law of niceness, like not murdering, stealing, lying, etc. Basically just commandments 5 through 10 of the 10 commandments.
That's a start.
But of course that’s not what the Bible or Christianity say is important. I’ve read the whole Bible, and others probably have too. I think Faith will agree with me that commandments 5 through 10 aren’t the main point (that’s why they are 5-10, and not #1). Even Jesus says that, in Mt 22. The Bible, over and over, stresses that other religions are NOT acceptable, no matter how nice one is.
I didn't say any of this was "acceptable" as religion. There is no way we can earn our way to God's favor, and that is what all religions do. All attempts to obey the moral law fail as far as salvation goes. I've tried to be clear about this but perhaps haven't spelled it out consistently enough. I'm not talking about salvation when I'm talking about the moral law and health and longevity and genetic deterioration. I'm talking about practical rules for minimizing the effect of the Fall in this life only, on this planet only.
The OT goes into incredible detail about that, and repeatedly gives examples where being the right religion is more important than family (such as the order to publically kill any family member, “even the wife you love”, if they so much as suggest going to a different church, or the time a mother is rebelled against because of her religion, or many other examples). Much of Jeremiah is a rant against other religions. The NT takes this even farther, saying that not only is religion the most important thing, but now trying to keep the law is a threat to your salvation (Gal). Paul goes on and on about how trying to keep the law is a ticket to eternal torture. Any reading of the Bible that doesn’t completely ignore it makes it clear that people like Gandhi (a Hindu) and Anne Frank (a Jew) are screaming in eternal agony right now.
The Bible is given as a revelation of the truth which we have lost because of the Fall which blinded us. It reveals the nature of things, the nature of God, rather than that it decrees anything. It isn't "other religions" it's simply blind human nature's failure to recognize the truth since the Fall, having been seduced by Satan and no longer knowing the true God. Human nature can't come up with true religion, it's beyond us, this is why we need revelation from God himself. The disposition of particular individuals who do not know Christ is best left to God. Those who outright reject Christ are something other than those who never learned of him. God is merciful; it will all make perfect sense in the end.
Later on, Faith clarifies here position, which does seem to fit more with the Bible:
As for the Savior, yes, there is only one, and he's what Christianity is about, it's not about living according to the moral law for salvation.
Christianity is not about obeying the law, it's about needing a savior from it.
It seems that most cultures do have something like a universal moral law (UML), which condemns murder, torture, stealing, lying, and such. That would be a good topic for a thread on Evolutionary Psychology. It also seems that the Bible mandates something very different, where acceptance of Jesus and only Jesus is what is important, and that someone who is very, very good at obeying the UML has no hope of avoiding torture unless they are Christian, and a Christian is saved from torture no matter how bad they are (Jeffrey Dahlmer accepted Christ before being executed).
So, back to my original response to this idea - according to the Bible, and to every major denomination today, it’s being Christian that is most important to God.
Well, we are in danger of eternal suffering because of our defiance of the moral law, and God provided the remedy. There is no other. He revealed it all at a particular time and place, but it's a mistake to get hung up on that fact. "Being Christian" kind of misrepresents it. Those who have accepted the remedy are called Christian, but don't get hung up on terminology. The disease is universal and the remedy is offered to all.
Yes, I know that plenty of verses can support the idea that following the UML is important as long as you are Christian FIRST.
Please rethink the context here. This wasn't to be a thread about Christianity but about the Biblical revelation of the Fall and the implications of that for our physical degeneration which I believe would show in the genome if we would only study it with that in view. This isn't about how to have eternal life, which comes only through embracing the Savior God sent for that purpose, it's only about our physical life in this physical realm. While it helps to get these things sorted out, let's not turn this thread into a thread about salvation.
Thus, if Faith’s idea that God’s unhappiness with you results in genetic degradation, then expecting a high mutation rate among those of the wrong denomination or Hindu, Muslim or maybe worst of all, those accepting Unitarians, makes sense.
But this is specifically what I was trying to counter by pointing out that all cultures have intuited the moral law and sought to found principles of living on it. There is nothing whatever that is inherently Christian about it. I would expect there to be no obvious difference between Christians and others in this respect, except perhaps what has come from God's blessing our circumstances with medical knowledge and that sort of thing. But as far as our human bodies go we're no less subject to disease and death than anyone else on the planet. I would expect Lao Tse, and any who follow his principles of humility and avoiding desire and conflict, to live a long healthy life. Certainly those principles would keep him from sins against the Ten Commandments.
In fact, along those lines, maybe Apo shows that Luther and Calvin had it wrong. After all, Apo and his family are clearly favored by God, and being in a remote village in Italy, I bet they are observant Catholics. So all that prayer to saints, veneration of the pope, and statues to Mary must be the one true faith, and the best way to ward off bad mutations.
I would like to emphasize again that I am not talking about religion, I'm talking about living in accord with the moral law, and yes, the ten commandments, the last five or six if you prefer, would be a good standard for starters. That much is pretty universal.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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