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Author Topic:   Is a literal reading of the Bible an insult to its authors?
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 151 of 187 (477552)
08-04-2008 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by rueh
08-03-2008 5:23 PM


Re: Re-Story
ICANT writes:
fish could have looked like the 3 man sub
ICANT writes:
fish could have been an angel
ICANT writes:
The sperm whale has a body that could accommodate a person for 3 days without doing damage to him.
You forgot to add in that you need the Holy Spirit with you to read the text properly.
When you have the HS, then everything becomes clear apparently.
It is very sad what religion can do peoples' minds.
For me the best thing about this thread is that it is demonstrating to lurkers just how desperate some people can be to try and keep their delusions intact.
We got a freakin man sitting inside a whale's head, a fishy kind of angel, and a fish that could have looked like a 3 man sub!
Joking aside though, you bring up a good point about reinterpreting the text and/or trying to read it through the eyes of people 3000 plus years ago.
This is one area where inerrantists insult the Bible because the Bible is a wonderful collection of texts, but many of the books, in particular the prehistory books, simply reflect contemporary ideas. There's numerous parallels between the Bible and contemporary societies, talking snakes, magical fruits, floods, flat earth, and enormous life-spans can all be found in other ancient texts.
In many places the Bible relfects what was thought to be reality at the time of writing, it doesn't mean that 3000 years later people should make utter fools of themselves trying to prove that folk tales are 100% accurate.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-05-2008 11:48 AM Brian has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 152 of 187 (477574)
08-05-2008 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
07-21-2008 1:01 PM


The day the terrorists converted
Thanks, Brian. I very much enjoyed reading your OP. I noted that the vine would be a clear reference to Israel as well.
Jonah is great teaching story. It's concise. It combines memorable fantastic images with a credible main character. It draws on powerful archetypes. It falls into a satisfying ABA form with Jonah's prayer in the whale's belly representing the centre.
If the book of Jonah dates from during or just after the Assyrian period, its author and audience would have been keenly aware of two things:
1. Assyria was a grave threat to the very survival of Israel, and every other country and people with in its reach.
2. The events of the story are obviously fantastic.
The taxon of the sea beastie is a modern obsession. The giveaway for ancient listeners that this was a symbolic story would be the fantastic depiction of Nineveh. The real capital city of Assyria was no place to indulge itinerant foreign preachers or national self-doubt. The events described just wouldn't happen. (See Nahum for a more realistic treatment of Nineveh.)
The Assyrians sought not just conquest, but terrorizing and humiliation of every nation around them. Their armies tortured prisoners in cruelly inventive ways and displayed the bodies on roadsides. In real life, no Israelite could sanely entertain the notion of heading straight for the Assyrian capital and accusing its people in a public square. That would be asking for someone to cut out your tongue, put a chain link through your cheek, and fasten you to a millstone to live out the rest of your days as a slave.
Clearly, the teller of the story knew this and expected audiences to know. Of course the main character flees to the opposite end of the world. Of course the main character resents God letting these people off the hook. Try telling a story to an orthodox Jew or an American Baptist about the happy day Osama Bin Laden converts. How many smiles will you see?
The moral of the story is plainly stated at the end. Get over your provincialism and self-absorption. The source of all life is more than just a totem of one nation or clan. All human beings count.
But stating it just validates what you say in your OP about the power of story. Saying 'All human beings count' is easy. It's a platitude. But a story invites listeners to do more than merely repeat what they believe. It invites them to decide what they would do. Its symbols walk them through reality.
Reality: not every human being asks for your tolerance. Not every human being intends to tolerate you or anyone you love. Now what?
____
Edited by Archer Opterix, : brev.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 07-21-2008 1:01 PM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by iano, posted 08-05-2008 8:50 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 153 of 187 (477577)
08-05-2008 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by ICANT
08-01-2008 9:19 PM


And storytellers made great whales
Since Jonah's fish was especially prepared for him there would be no problem in his fish supporting him for 3 days.
Right. Jonah's fish was 'especially prepared' for him. By the storyteller.
You are discovering that recognizing the fish as a custom invention solves all the problems. Indeed it does. Fictional fish can eat anything. (Saint Spielberg, Jaws chapter 1) Fictional people can survive anything. (Saint Bruce Willis, Die Hard chapters 1 and 2)
I like to imagine Jonah being eaten by a giant male betta. Wouldn't it be great if artists showed it to us this way? You'd have spectaculour colour, and you'd get those big fins sweeping around. And the betta attitude is totally badass. Scaling up that bad boy gives you a much more dramatic beastie than the one you usually see.
But that's just me. To the storyteller it was the prayer, not the fish, that mattered. The fish is an image that frames the prayer at the centre of the tale. The prayer gets the detailed treatment.
The Jonah tale is a teaching story. Like a parable? Very like a parable.
____
Edited by Archer Opterix, : brev.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : stocked the pond.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : messing around.

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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 154 of 187 (477596)
08-05-2008 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Archer Opteryx
08-05-2008 12:16 AM


Re: The day the terrorists converted
Archer writes:
In real life, no Israelite could sanely entertain the notion of heading straight for the Assyrian capital and accusing its people in a public square. That would be asking for someone to cut out your tongue, put a chain link through your cheek, and fasten you to a millstone to live out the rest of your days as a slave.
Jesus was an Israelite and he did much the same thing in Jerusalem. He 'asked for' and got much as you describe. Then there are the apostles who stood up on the day of Pentecost in like manner. They were accused of being drunk though - not insane. Riots followed Paul around whereever he went yet he went ...
It is a feature of men of God to do precisely what you say they wouldn't. Unless you're supposing the New Testament fable too of course

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-05-2008 12:16 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Brian, posted 08-05-2008 9:20 AM iano has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 155 of 187 (477603)
08-05-2008 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by iano
08-05-2008 8:50 AM


Re: The day the terrorists converted
He 'asked for' and got much as you describe.
Your evidence for this is what?
Then there are the apostles who stood up on the day of Pentecost in like manner.
Evidence?
They were accused of being drunk though - not insane.
Evidence?
Riots followed Paul around whereever he went yet he went ...
Evidence?
It is a feature of men of God to do precisely what you say they wouldn't.
It's a nice feature of the Book of Jonah that God doesn't give a damn about free will.
Unless you're supposing the New Testament fable too of course
No, of course it isn't fable. 3 hour eclipses, graves opening and the dead walking the street, people being brought back to life, virgin birth, demons living in people, how can all that possibly be untrue?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by iano, posted 08-05-2008 8:50 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by iano, posted 08-05-2008 10:08 AM Brian has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 156 of 187 (477612)
08-05-2008 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Brian
08-05-2008 9:20 AM


Re: The day the terrorists converted
No, of course it isn't fable. 3 hour eclipses, graves opening and the dead walking the street, people being brought back to life, virgin birth, demons living in people, how can all that possibly be untrue?
I was referring to those elements of the NT where men stood up where Archers "sane men" wouldn't. If you don't want to consider the NT as history then the history of martyrs should be sufficient to demonstrate that insular point.
It's a nice feature of the Book of Jonah that God doesn't give a damn about free will.
God only knows what deal existed between God and Jonah prior to the books opening lines. Perhaps Jonah, like me, signed up to Gods service. In which case ones freewill has been signed away on the dotted line.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Brian, posted 08-05-2008 9:20 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Brian, posted 08-05-2008 12:08 PM iano has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 157 of 187 (477619)
08-05-2008 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Brian
08-04-2008 1:12 PM


Re: Re-Story
Brian writes:
When you have the HS, then everything becomes clear apparently.
You just about home Brian.
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Brian, posted 08-04-2008 1:12 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 158 of 187 (477625)
08-05-2008 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by iano
08-05-2008 10:08 AM


Re: The day the terrorists converted
I was referring to those elements of the NT where men stood up where Archers "sane men" wouldn't.
And I was referring to the fact that there's no evidence to support anything you claimed about these men.
If you don't want to consider the NT as history
You expect any rational person to believe that an invisible 3 hour eclipse was historical? You expect a rational person to believe in a virgin birth, or graves splitting open and the dead walking the street? These are not historical events Ian, these are just lies to try and make Jesus into something He clearly wasn't.
then the history of martyrs should be sufficient to demonstrate that insular point.
The history of martyrs only shows how stupid some people can be.
Dying for a fairytale isn't unique to Christianity, every faith has its martyrs, which should be sufficient to demonstrate the flaw in your reasoning.
All those Muslim martyrs must mean that Allah is God, do you agree?

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 Message 156 by iano, posted 08-05-2008 10:08 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by iano, posted 08-05-2008 12:29 PM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 159 of 187 (477626)
08-05-2008 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Dawn Bertot
08-05-2008 11:48 AM


Re: Re-Story
I been home for nearly 25 years, ever since I discovered the myth of Christ.

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 Message 157 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-05-2008 11:48 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 160 of 187 (477627)
08-05-2008 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Brian
08-05-2008 12:08 PM


Re: The day the terrorists converted
The history of martyrs only shows how stupid some people can be.
Whatever. Point being, Archers point on what a person will or will not stand up and do/say fails at the court of history.
All those Muslim martyrs must mean that Allah is God, do you agree?
All those Christian martyrs don't mean God is God. At least I didn't suggest as much. Your arguing with shadows methinks..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Brian, posted 08-05-2008 12:08 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Brian, posted 08-05-2008 12:46 PM iano has replied
 Message 165 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-06-2008 2:14 PM iano has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 161 of 187 (477631)
08-05-2008 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by iano
08-05-2008 12:29 PM


Re: The day the terrorists converted
Point being, Archers point on what a person will or will not stand up and do/say fails at the court of history.
The point was that you were using the fact that the martyrs died for their beliefs somehow made any difference to the historicity of the NT.
All those Christian martyrs don't mean God is God.
Surely God is God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by iano, posted 08-05-2008 12:29 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by iano, posted 08-05-2008 1:05 PM Brian has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 162 of 187 (477632)
08-05-2008 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Brian
08-05-2008 12:46 PM


Re: The day the terrorists converted
The point was that you were using the fact that the martyrs died for their beliefs somehow made any difference to the historicity of the NT.
We seem to have crossed wires. Re-compute along the lines of martyrs (of your preferred historical hue) rendering the point Archer made void.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Brian, posted 08-05-2008 12:46 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Brian, posted 08-05-2008 1:13 PM iano has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 163 of 187 (477634)
08-05-2008 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by iano
08-05-2008 1:05 PM


Re: The day the terrorists converted
The way I read it was that I mentioned how 3 hour eclipses, dead walking about etc were not history, they were folk tales, in your reply you said 'If you don't want to consider the NT as history then the history of martyrs should be sufficient to demonstrate that insular point.
Anything that the martyrs done has no bearing on the historical accuracy of the NT.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by iano, posted 08-05-2008 1:05 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by iano, posted 08-05-2008 6:36 PM Brian has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 164 of 187 (477656)
08-05-2008 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Brian
08-05-2008 1:13 PM


Re: The day the terrorists converted
Anything that the martyrs done has no bearing on the historical accuracy of the NT.
Agreed. Onwards!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Brian, posted 08-05-2008 1:13 PM Brian has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 165 of 187 (477692)
08-06-2008 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by iano
08-05-2008 12:29 PM


Re: The day the terrorists converted
iano:
Archers point on what a person will or will not stand up and do/say fails at the court of history.
Read that post again. My point centred not on what a preacher might do, but on what the Assyrians would do.
Your praise of martyrs only reinforces my point. There are no martyrs in the book of Jonah.
You remind us that missionaries who go into hostile territory can expect terrible things to happen to them. The book of Jonah portrays a preacher going into the capital city of a brutal society determined to wipe out his people--and everything comes out okey-dokey.
It is the book that fails your 'court of history.' As well it shouldn't. It isn't history.
The book of Jonah is a work of the imagination.
____
Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by iano, posted 08-05-2008 12:29 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by iano, posted 08-06-2008 4:08 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
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