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Author Topic:   The Constraints of Design
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 5311 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 1 of 84 (482638)
09-17-2008 7:55 AM


For the first time in some months, I’ve managed to find a little time to check out some of the current topics that go towards making this forum so fascinating. One thing doesn’t seem to have changed much though - evolutionists are still asking IDers to produce evidence to substantiate their claims, and still no evidence appears.
Indeed, on a couple of occasions I have asked IDers to personally ask their ”prime suspect’ for ”IDer in chief’ how it formulated its grand design. Not surprisingly, I have had no positive responses. As somebody who sees no evidence for the existence of supernatural entities, I predict no such positive response will ever be forthcoming.
However, it does not follow that non-IDers should give up on the quest to try to illicit some kind of response from the ID lobby, beyond the perfunctory, “we don’t think natural processes can explain this, therefore it must have been designed”.
I want to return to the blind watchmaker analogy employed by William Paley, which contended that if he should happen upon a watch he would have no problem concluding that the watch could not have come into existence without the design input of an intelligent designer . and that apparent complexity observed within nature must similarly point to the work of an intelligent designer.
At this point the ID lobby tends to go on the offensive by attacking evolutionary theory without a backward glance to the analogy that underpins the intelligent design argument.
So I’d like to ask a couple of questions of IDers regarding the above analogy.
They have chosen to draw one inference from the analogy, but surely there are other questions raised by it that require addressing. For example, by analysing the watch in much greater detail, much can be learned about the design (and production) processes, as well as the materials that were used, etc, not to mention the amount of design knowledge that existed at the time the design was formulated. These might all be seen as design constraints placed upon designers whenever they look to design and produce anything.
So the first question might be, based on what IDers have observed of the designs they perceive in nature, what design constraints did the intelligent designer have to work with in formulating its ”grand design’? Specifically, what design knowledge was available to it? What materials were available to it? Where did these materials come from?
If, at this point, the IDers are tempted to play the ”supernatural’ trump card, I think it’s worth reminding them that this option was not available to Paley’s watchmaker, so for the analogy to have any merit, we need to be comparing like for like.
Indeed, the very reason that things need to be designed and then produced is because they cannot be ”magiced’ into existence - evidence of design is in itself evidence of the designer having to work within the constraints of the reality they inhabit and is a clear pointer to the designer having no ”supernatural’ or ”magical’ powers.
So the second question would be, do IDers accept the proposition that evidence of design within natural processes would point to a designer working within the constraints imposed upon them by their environment and the lack of any ”supernatural’ or ”magical’ powers on the part of said designer?

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by ICANT, posted 09-17-2008 10:58 AM dogrelata has replied
 Message 9 by Syamsu, posted 09-17-2008 1:21 PM dogrelata has not replied
 Message 19 by bluegenes, posted 09-17-2008 4:35 PM dogrelata has replied
 Message 31 by ikabod, posted 09-18-2008 4:57 AM dogrelata has replied
 Message 35 by onifre, posted 09-18-2008 10:43 AM dogrelata has replied
 Message 60 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 09-23-2008 11:27 AM dogrelata has replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 84 (482649)
09-17-2008 9:20 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 3 of 84 (482659)
09-17-2008 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by dogrelata
09-17-2008 7:55 AM


Re-Designer
Hi dogrelata,
I don't have the foggiest idea what IDers believe but I do have some thoughts of my own.
I have designed a few things in my lifetime. Houses, interstate exchanges, and thousands of kitchens. I find that my design was only limited by my imagination.
dogrelata writes:
So the first question might be, based on what IDers have observed of the designs they perceive in nature, what design constraints did the intelligent designer have to work with in formulating its 'grand design'? Specifically, what design knowledge was available to it? What materials were available to it? Where did these materials come from?
I look at the watch on my wrist and it amazes me how it can keep time. I have no understanding of how it works I just know it works.
I look at this beautiful universe we live in and it amazes me at how it works. I have no understanding of how it works I just know it works. I know there is much study and speculation of how it works.
Science says prior to the existence of the universe at T=10-43 "we do not know". So anything prior to that is speculation. There are some speculation of how we got from there to here. But the biggest mystery remains to be dark energy and dark matter, along with the genesis particle. Still looking for them.
Now to your questions.
As far as I am concerned your reference to intelligent designer and it, is the great I AM.
1.."what design constraints did the intelligent designer have to work with in formulating its 'grand design'?"
Design is limited only by imagination. So there would be no limit.
2.."what design knowledge was available to it?"
All knowledge.
3.."What materials were available to it?"
Everything you see and everything you cannot see.
4.."Where did these materials come from?"
From the warehouse of energy.
dogrelata writes:
Indeed, the very reason that things need to be designed and then produced is because they cannot be 'magiced' into existence -
The universe is here. That is a fact.
According to Hawking the universe did not always exist.
That makes it necessary for the universe to have to come into existence.
To me it was created by the great I AM. That is magic to you.
OR
It was created by a scalar field that there is no evidence for. That is magic to me.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by dogrelata, posted 09-17-2008 7:55 AM dogrelata has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by NosyNed, posted 09-17-2008 11:24 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 5 by bluegenes, posted 09-17-2008 11:39 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 11 by dogrelata, posted 09-17-2008 1:48 PM ICANT has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 4 of 84 (482661)
09-17-2008 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by ICANT
09-17-2008 10:58 AM


Untrue to start with
I find that my design was only limited by my imagination.
This is, of course, utterly untrue and obvious nonsense. One obvious constraint is the budget. After that the actual requirements are a constraint that must be considered if the design is to be worth shit: Is the house for a family of 10 or 2? Is the exchange meant to handle 1,000 cars a day or 50,000? Is the kitchen in a large restaurant or a woodland cabin? This only starts to list the enormous number of constraints you were limited by.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by ICANT, posted 09-17-2008 10:58 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by bluegenes, posted 09-17-2008 11:41 AM NosyNed has not replied
 Message 7 by ICANT, posted 09-17-2008 12:47 PM NosyNed has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 5 of 84 (482664)
09-17-2008 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by ICANT
09-17-2008 10:58 AM


Re: Re-Designer
ICANT writes:
I have designed a few things in my lifetime. Houses, interstate exchanges, and thousands of kitchens. I find that my design was only limited by my imagination.
So you had a limitless budget for your houses and kitchens? Weren't you constrained to make both large enough for humans to fit in them, not to mention the furnishings? And weren't you constrained to make the kitchens small enough to fit in the houses, and the houses small enough to fit into the available land, or smaller, at least, than planet earth? Did you design many flying houses or kitchens made of inflammable straw, or were there practical constraints that prevented you from doing such things?
As far as I am concerned your reference to intelligent designer and it, is the great I AM.
Didn't you read the O.P.? Constraints explain why the designer doesn't do flying elephants. The great "I AM" presumably could.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by ICANT, posted 09-17-2008 10:58 AM ICANT has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 6 of 84 (482665)
09-17-2008 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by NosyNed
09-17-2008 11:24 AM


Re: Untrue to start with
NoseyNed writes:
One obvious constraint is the budget.
You just beat me to it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by NosyNed, posted 09-17-2008 11:24 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 7 of 84 (482668)
09-17-2008 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by NosyNed
09-17-2008 11:24 AM


Re: Untrue to start with
Hi Ned,
NoseyNed writes:
This is, of course, utterly untrue and obvious nonsense. One obvious constraint is the budget. After that the actual requirements are a constraint that must be considered if the design is to be worth shit: Is the house for a family of 10 or 2? Is the exchange meant to handle 1,000 cars a day or 50,000? Is the kitchen in a large restaurant or a woodland cabin? This only starts to list the enormous number of constraints you were limited by.
Ned there was no restrictions on my design.
There were restrictions on my implementation.
Most of the time budget was no problem.
God Bless.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by NosyNed, posted 09-17-2008 11:24 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by NosyNed, posted 09-17-2008 1:11 PM ICANT has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 8 of 84 (482675)
09-17-2008 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ICANT
09-17-2008 12:47 PM


Re: Untrue to start with
Ned there was no restrictions on my design.
There were restrictions on my implementation.
So you designed a 20 lane interchange but implemented a 2 lane one; you designed a 5,000 sq ft kosher kitchen but implemented a 100 sq ft one; you designed a 1 story 1500 sq ft rancher but implemented a 4,000 sq ft 3 story home?
It still smells like nonsense. And it is very, very rare that budget is not a constraint. It maybe that it is not the tightest constraint in which case it is not a "problem".
If you design without considerations of constraints then I don't want to drive on your interchanges, use your kitchens or live in your houses.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ICANT, posted 09-17-2008 12:47 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5589 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 9 of 84 (482681)
09-17-2008 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by dogrelata
09-17-2008 7:55 AM


In creationism you start out with nothing, or zero, creatio ex nihilo. So the constraint is basically nothing.
A thing is designed if it exists as a whole in the future first. For example there is a likelyhood of fourlegged animals in the universe, from the start of the universe. So there exists this design of basic forms in the universe still, and the design was made at the start of the universe. Paley refers to classes of organisms.
If a thing is formed by many decisions, and the whole is not considered in each of those decisions, then it was not designed. For example if I add bits to a thing, and my options are just between different bits, then i am not designing the thing. But if I add bits to a thing and my options are between different whole things, then I am designing the thing.
That is mainly a science of history. But there is also another meaning of design, which is based on the order of the thing itself. For example in terms of universal language, peoples language has much similar order as DNA does. And so for everything we can look at what order it has.

This message is a reply to:
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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5589 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 10 of 84 (482687)
09-17-2008 1:44 PM


I think that what you want to know is something like, if the universal constants are changeable or not. I think thats what you mean by supernatural, from outside the universe, that the constraints are changed, a super over all the natural, changing the natural at will.
Newton opined that a system needs renewal from an outside source, otherwise it decays. That would be the reason for disciplined prayer, to receive this renewal, so he opined. That sounds reasonable to me.

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by dogrelata, posted 09-17-2008 2:04 PM Syamsu has replied

  
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 5311 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 11 of 84 (482688)
09-17-2008 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by ICANT
09-17-2008 10:58 AM


Re: Re-Designer
Sorry ICANT, but you’re going to have to try a bit harder if you want to be taken seriously. The “my god is great, it can do anything” routine may be fine in the playground, but I’m kind of hoping we can aspire to something a little better around here.
Do you want to take some time out and come back with something a bit stronger, or are you happy to rest your case with what you’ve presented?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by ICANT, posted 09-17-2008 10:58 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by ICANT, posted 09-17-2008 2:13 PM dogrelata has replied

  
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 5311 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 12 of 84 (482691)
09-17-2008 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Syamsu
09-17-2008 1:44 PM


What I want to know
Syamsu writes:
I think that what you want to know is something like, if the universal constants are changeable or not.
No. What I want to know is what those who propose an intelligent designer for the world we see about us believe the designs they observe tell them about the designer and what constraints were placed upon that designer by its knowledge base, the materials it had to work with, the processes that were required to implement the design, etc.
By dissecting the designs of a human designer, we can answer many of the questions posed above. I think it’s a valid question to ask the proponents of ID to do the same thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Syamsu, posted 09-17-2008 1:44 PM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Syamsu, posted 09-17-2008 3:42 PM dogrelata has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 13 of 84 (482692)
09-17-2008 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by dogrelata
09-17-2008 1:48 PM


Re-Designer
Hi dogrelata,
dogrelata writes:
Sorry ICANT, but you’re going to have to try a bit harder if you want to be taken seriously. The “my god is great, it can do anything” routine may be fine in the playground, but I’m kind of hoping we can aspire to something a little better around here.
You want to know what the constraints would be on my God.
There is absolutly none.
Just as there are no constraints placed on the Higgs field that is used by science to produce our universe.
So what is the problem?
Is my Creator not allowed the same privilages as your creator?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by dogrelata, posted 09-17-2008 1:48 PM dogrelata has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by dogrelata, posted 09-17-2008 3:45 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 16 by NosyNed, posted 09-17-2008 3:45 PM ICANT has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5589 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 14 of 84 (482705)
09-17-2008 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by dogrelata
09-17-2008 2:04 PM


Re: What I want to know
Well then your answer must be nothing, creatio ex nihilo. Prior to anything there is the logic of nothing, as it says in a paper on it. That is the constraint, or lack thereof. And that is also how peoples creation works, from nothing. What is added from nothing is new, obviously. So that is the material with which God works. Ofcourse spiritually God works with love and such. But neither peoples nor Gods love are material things according to creationism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by dogrelata, posted 09-17-2008 2:04 PM dogrelata has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by dogrelata, posted 09-17-2008 4:00 PM Syamsu has replied

  
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 5311 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 15 of 84 (482706)
09-17-2008 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ICANT
09-17-2008 2:13 PM


Re: Re-Designer
I guess as a designer you might want to pour more concrete to add strength to a structure, but applying the same principle by repeating the assertion “my god is great, it can do anything” does nothing to strengthen your case.
Thanks for your contribution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ICANT, posted 09-17-2008 2:13 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by ICANT, posted 09-17-2008 4:52 PM dogrelata has replied

  
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