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Author Topic:   Eternal Life (thanks, but no thanks)
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3426 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 121 of 296 (520246)
08-20-2009 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by iano
02-10-2009 9:42 AM


Re: Kim il-YHWH
quote:
Fallen short of what - if not how we know a father should be?
  —Iano
No. Just that we, as children, live our lives the way we are taught and we only expect certain things of our parents once we are older. Totally based on the society we live in. The "absent father" comes into play when we are told that we "have" to have a father or when those around us have that figure or not.
Children, IMO, should always have a way out.
quote:
God's goal is to have children and given that he is the only God, the intention can't be that we become adults - which is the other alternative we can picture.
That is sick. The thought that you can never become who you want to be or that you can never become what you feel you should be because an invisible man said "NO!!!" means you can never cross the street is abhorrent.
Are you a permanent child?

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by iano, posted 02-10-2009 9:42 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by iano, posted 08-31-2009 9:28 AM Jaderis has not replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3426 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 122 of 296 (520247)
08-20-2009 4:29 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Teapots&unicorns
06-24-2009 5:46 PM


Re: Shutup and Kiss my ring, already
No.

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 06-24-2009 5:46 PM Teapots&unicorns has seen this message but not replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3426 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 123 of 296 (520248)
08-20-2009 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by iano
02-10-2009 7:53 AM


Re: Choosing to be unable to choose ... for sin.
quote:
You'll remember back in the garden of Eden where Adam is told that he may chose to eat any of many fruits of the garden - bar for one? Well, his case models the position that we've all been born into. We too are faced with a choice regarding the direction we want to go viz-a-viz God. When I talk about choosing to give up choice I'm talking about choosing to have the "forbidden fruit option" removed forever from my list of options.
  —Iano
Why not have that option removed from the beginning?
quote:
In eternity I'll have plenty to choose from - it's just that all options will be pleasing to God - none will be sinful. I'll be a bit like Adam - able to chose from all the fruit in God's garden - without having to face again the option of forbidden fruit
Then, why not have that option as Adam/Eve? If God really wanted eternal sycophants then why not (in His omniscient/omnipotent self) create a Paradise where you could opt to do everything pleasing to Him and not have to go through the "Fall," "the Flud," and the "Enlightenment."
He already had angels with free will (Lucifer!!!!one11). So, why humans?
quote:
I wouldn't concern myself about spending an eternity with God whilst currently loved ones perish in hell. That which makes a person attractive and good and worthwhile and loveable is the image of God in which they are made: God is good and worthwhile and attractive and loveable. That image will be removed from the person before they are cast into the pit. All that will remain attaching to them is the horror of their evil. There would be nothing about them to love anymore.
You're disgusting. That story is disgusting. I don't want to be in your god's graces. He is a despicable character.

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by iano, posted 02-10-2009 7:53 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 08-30-2009 6:30 PM Jaderis has not replied
 Message 127 by iano, posted 08-31-2009 7:38 AM Jaderis has not replied

  
Holyfire23
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 296 (521245)
08-26-2009 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Modulous
02-04-2009 9:33 AM


God is the source of all knowledge. Of course you will learn.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2009 9:33 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Modulous, posted 08-26-2009 5:05 PM Holyfire23 has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 125 of 296 (521266)
08-26-2009 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Holyfire23
08-26-2009 3:55 PM


Your in depth analysis of my philosophical dilemma has stunned me into converting. Allahu Akbar!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Holyfire23, posted 08-26-2009 3:55 PM Holyfire23 has not replied

  
Teapots&unicorns
Member (Idle past 4888 days)
Posts: 178
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 126 of 296 (521950)
08-30-2009 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Jaderis
08-20-2009 5:08 AM


Re: Choosing to be unable to choose ... for sin.
quote:
I wouldn't concern myself about spending an eternity with God whilst currently loved ones perish in hell. That which makes a person attractive and good and worthwhile and loveable is the image of God in which they are made: God is good and worthwhile and attractive and loveable. That image will be removed from the person before they are cast into the pit. All that will remain attaching to them is the horror of their evil. There would be nothing about them to love anymore.
You're disgusting. That story is disgusting. I don't want to be in your god's graces. He is a despicable character.
Seconded

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
- Stephen Roberts
I'm a polyatheist - there are many gods I don't believe in
- Dan Foutes
"In the beginning, the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has widely been considered as a bad move."
- Douglas Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Jaderis, posted 08-20-2009 5:08 AM Jaderis has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 127 of 296 (521982)
08-31-2009 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Jaderis
08-20-2009 5:08 AM


Re: Choosing to be unable to choose ... for sin.
iano writes:
You'll remember back in the garden of Eden where Adam is told that he may chose to eat any of many fruits of the garden - bar for one? Well, his case models the position that we've all been born into. We too are faced with a choice regarding the direction we want to go viz-a-viz God. When I talk about choosing to give up choice I'm talking about choosing to have the "forbidden fruit option" removed forever from my list of options.
jaderis writes:
Why not have that option removed from the beginning?
If that option were removed at the start then removed along with it is the possibility of beings choosing both for and against God. If a central plank of God's plan involves highest-tier relationship (which necessitates the parties involved being free to opt out of such relationship) then choice there must be. I'd suggest that such is a central plank of Gods plan.
Then, why not have that option as Adam/Eve? If God really wanted eternal sycophants then why not (in His omniscient/omnipotent self) create a Paradise where you could opt to do everything pleasing to Him and not have to go through the "Fall," "the Flud," and the "Enlightenment."
He already had angels with free will (Lucifer!!!!one11). So, why humans?
The mechanism of salvation would appear to preclude the possibility of a syncophatic relationship. If one cannot lose salvation no matter what one subsequently does or doesn't do, then the last thing one need be is be a syncophant.
Remember that the choice to forego the desire/ability to sin (in eternity) is a choice that is left up to the individual.
Regarding your question. Without the possibility of a choice against one can't invoke the phrase "opt for". Could you re-phrase the question so as to maintain free will without the possibility of it being exercised. I'd suggest that to be a logical impossibility.
Angels might well have had free will but it doesn't make them same order as God. You'd agree that beings of like order can relate better than beings of different order (witness the potential levels of relationship you can have with another person or a dog). God, desiring the highest level of relationship possible opts to makes God-ordered individuals. Thus, the reborn individual is described as a son of God. An adopted son granted, but the equi-order aspect God intends can't be missed.
You're disgusting. That story is disgusting. I don't want to be in your god's graces. He is a despicable character.
Whilst passionate, you're not being rational. I'm suggesting this world of ours to be a temporary arrangement whose function is to permit us to self-decide our eternal destinations - the eternal being final. The only choices are to be with God and all that that entails - including reflecting fully the image of him in which we have been (re)made. Or to be without God and have nothing at all to do with his image.
If the choice is our own, what possible complaint can there be from the one who's made it? If that choice involves them being stripped of that which they choose to reject .. and that renders them only despicable ..why is your disgust aimed at the God who grants their will be done?
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Jaderis, posted 08-20-2009 5:08 AM Jaderis has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 128 of 296 (521991)
08-31-2009 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Jaderis
08-20-2009 4:27 AM


Re: Kim il-YHWH
iano writes:
God's goal is to have children and given that he is the only God, the intention can't be that we become adults
Jaderis writes:
That is sick. The thought that you can never become who you want to be or that you can never become what you feel you should be because an invisible man said "NO!!!" means you can never cross the street is abhorrent.
The saved person is one who has (effectively) decided that God's way for them is the way they want to go, that it's the destination they want to arrive at. Once that overarching decision has been made there is no need to revisit it or "grow up and leave home" from it.
That decision is part-arrived at by a having already having had ample opportunity to cross the street - despite an invisible man (the conscience) having said no.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Jaderis, posted 08-20-2009 4:27 AM Jaderis has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 08-31-2009 2:40 PM iano has replied
 Message 130 by lyx2no, posted 08-31-2009 3:43 PM iano has not replied
 Message 132 by purpledawn, posted 08-31-2009 6:53 PM iano has replied

  
Teapots&unicorns
Member (Idle past 4888 days)
Posts: 178
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 129 of 296 (522032)
08-31-2009 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by iano
08-31-2009 9:28 AM


Re: Kim il-YHWH
The saved person is one who has (effectively) decided that God's way for them is the way they want to go, that it's the destination they want to arrive at. Once that overarching decision has been made there is no need to revisit it or "grow up and leave home" from it.
I see your point, but unfortunately (for you) there are people who decide they want to at least try to grow up and be their own people and, in the meantime, are ultimately punished by God for either not following his directions correctly or turning their back on the invisible man that they had no legitimate reason to believe in anyway. "Kind and just"....yeah

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
- Stephen Roberts
I'm a polyatheist - there are many gods I don't believe in
- Dan Foutes
"In the beginning, the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has widely been considered as a bad move."
- Douglas Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by iano, posted 08-31-2009 9:28 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by iano, posted 09-01-2009 7:43 AM Teapots&unicorns has seen this message but not replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4717 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 130 of 296 (522041)
08-31-2009 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by iano
08-31-2009 9:28 AM


Re: Kim il-YHWH
The saved person is one who has (effectively) decided that God's way for them is the way they want to go
Sounds like Stockholm Syndrome to me.

It's not the man that knows the most that has the most to say.
Anon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by iano, posted 08-31-2009 9:28 AM iano has not replied

  
Aware Wolf
Member (Idle past 1420 days)
Posts: 156
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 02-13-2009


Message 131 of 296 (522043)
08-31-2009 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by iano
02-10-2009 7:53 AM


Re: Choosing to be unable to choose ... for sin.
iano writes:
I wouldn't concern myself about spending an eternity with God whilst currently loved ones perish in hell. That which makes a person attractive and good and worthwhile and loveable is the image of God in which they are made: God is good and worthwhile and attractive and loveable. That image will be removed from the person before they are cast into the pit. All that will remain attaching to them is the horror of their evil. There would be nothing about them to love anymore.
Oh, well, in that case, let the sonuvabitches burn.
Edited by Aware Wolf, : spelling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by iano, posted 02-10-2009 7:53 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by iano, posted 09-01-2009 7:49 AM Aware Wolf has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 132 of 296 (522060)
08-31-2009 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by iano
08-31-2009 9:28 AM


Re: Kim il-YHWH
quote:
The saved person is one who has (effectively) decided that God's way for them is the way they want to go, that it's the destination they want to arrive at. Once that overarching decision has been made there is no need to revisit it or "grow up and leave home" from it.
If they truly understand God, then once that decision has been made they are quite capable of crossing the road without supervision. They have matured.
Why do you feel that God wants perpetual children? Why do you think he got so upset with the Israelites? Why do you think he planned to write it on their hearts? I'm sure it's rather annoying to keep telling humans to behave day after day, decade after decade, century after century, millennium after millennium.
Even humans know it isn't healthy to keep our children from maturing. That's how the planet works. Why would God want anything different?
I think religion has the need to keep people as children, not God.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by iano, posted 08-31-2009 9:28 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by iano, posted 09-01-2009 7:58 AM purpledawn has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 133 of 296 (522097)
09-01-2009 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Teapots&unicorns
08-31-2009 2:40 PM


Re: Kim il-YHWH
T&C writes:
I see your point, but unfortunately (for you) there are people who decide they want to at least try to grow up and be their own people and, in the meantime, are ultimately punished by God for either not following his directions correctly or turning their back on the invisible man that they had no legitimate reason to believe in anyway. "Kind and just"....yeah
"Growing up and being their own people" can't happen so no one is trying to do it. Either you go to be with God (which means perpetual childhood wrt God) or you don't (which would appear to mean an eternal existance locked up with the inability to express own will > ergo and existance less than that of childhood.)
You don't need to believe in God in order to tell God what it is you want. We are therefore we act, think and do. Our will is on show to God whether we like it or not.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 08-31-2009 2:40 PM Teapots&unicorns has seen this message but not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 134 of 296 (522099)
09-01-2009 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Aware Wolf
08-31-2009 4:08 PM


Re: Choosing to be unable to choose ... for sin.
Aware Wolf writes:
Oh, well, in that case, let the sonuvabitches burn.
They will. But in the meantime the instruction is to tell them that they don't have to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Aware Wolf, posted 08-31-2009 4:08 PM Aware Wolf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Aware Wolf, posted 09-01-2009 10:29 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 135 of 296 (522100)
09-01-2009 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by purpledawn
08-31-2009 6:53 PM


Re: Kim il-YHWH
purpledwn writes:
If they truly understand God, then once that decision has been made they are quite capable of crossing the road without supervision. They have matured.
Hi PD,
They don't truly understand God. They understand sufficient of God to understand that they want and need more of God.
Why do you feel that God wants perpetual children? Why do you think he got so upset with the Israelites? Why do you think he planned to write it on their hearts? I'm sure it's rather annoying to keep telling humans to behave day after day, decade after decade, century after century, millennium after millennium.
Even humans know it isn't healthy to keep our children from maturing. That's how the planet works. Why would God want anything different?
Haven't you forgotten another stage in the above process - which you suppose to parallel the eternal kingdom? Death. If death isn't a part of God's kingdom then why suppose adulthood?
Besides, the picture isn't that we don't grow - it's just that we can never become God: he'll always be more powerful, always wiser, always the one who provides the sustenance which we need.
The picture given from Hebrew times is one where the son, on engagement, builds an dwelling onto his fathers house and comes back with his bride to reside under his fathers roof.
I think religion has the need to keep people as children, not God.
I think you'll find logic to the contrary inescapable. Unless you suppose we can get around to sustaining ourselves. Or perhaps get to looking after God in his dotage
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by purpledawn, posted 08-31-2009 6:53 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by purpledawn, posted 09-01-2009 8:32 AM iano has not replied

  
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