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Author Topic:   Jose Guerena
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 46 of 116 (617247)
05-26-2011 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by PsychMJC
05-26-2011 2:30 PM


Re: Be Afraid
You're missing a big part of the situation. One of the cops tripped on something and fell backward. This made the other cops to think he'd been shot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by PsychMJC, posted 05-26-2011 2:30 PM PsychMJC has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Jaderis, posted 05-27-2011 5:59 AM Taz has not replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 47 of 116 (617276)
05-27-2011 5:41 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Son
05-26-2011 2:47 PM


Re: Be Afraid
Absolutely, Son. I lived in an area with a good 15 mile stretch of nothing and a lot of rumors of rapists pretending to be cops. I was told by my mother that I had the right to put on my hazards and keep to the limit until I found an occupied area and then pull over. I said that to a cop once and he nearly brought me in for resisting arrest even though the original stop was for a blown out tail light. No alcohol. No drugs. Simply having the nerve to assert my rights and look out for my own safety.

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Son, posted 05-26-2011 2:47 PM Son has not replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 48 of 116 (617278)
05-27-2011 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Taz
05-26-2011 8:22 PM


Re: Be Afraid
But cops are (supposed to be) trained to react to these situations, no?
But what about the downed officer said "cop shot?" If there were no shots heard in the microseconds that it took for Amadou to take out his wallet, why the several dozen bullets?
Police have protective gear and (supposed) training. Why the trigger happiness?
Especially with SWAT teams that go in to people's home's unannounced. They have full protective gear but the people they are serving are in pyjamas with their infants/toddlers in their beds.
It's fucked up. To go in with guns blazing with the possibility of children in the house. With the police with full protective gear and still trigger happy and no remorse for the collateral damage.

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Taz, posted 05-26-2011 8:22 PM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by crashfrog, posted 05-27-2011 2:07 PM Jaderis has not replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 49 of 116 (617279)
05-27-2011 6:26 AM


Here's another
I hope you aren't deaf or otherwise not doing anything wrong which should not solicit a reply to the police (or anyone else...I often ignore random yells from people on the street). This half deaf guy missed a yell from a cop and was dead 5 seconds later. Sucks to be a cop when a guy with a whittling knife and a piece of wood in broad daylight makes you so spooked you have to put 4 in his back and then have all of your buddies cordon off the scene of the dead guy to make it look good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnKLEOXenow&feature=playe...

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Dogmafood, posted 05-27-2011 10:29 AM Jaderis has not replied
 Message 55 by crashfrog, posted 05-27-2011 2:12 PM Jaderis has not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 50 of 116 (617294)
05-27-2011 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Taz
05-26-2011 10:26 AM


Re: Be Afraid
Taz writes:
Jesus christ...
Who?
Taz writes:
Some are really really good with arranging the truths to paint a false picture.
Then in the same paragraph
Taz writes:
You keep thinking they twist the truth and stuff. That's not it at all.
Well which is it Taz. They either speak the truth or they do not. You either have integrity or you do not. Using the facts to paint a false picture is not honesty but I think that we agree on this.
Most of the people who want to be police officers probably shouldn’t be allowed. The police in general need a great big dose of humility and they need to understand that the confidence of the public is critical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Taz, posted 05-26-2011 10:26 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by fearandloathing, posted 05-27-2011 10:46 AM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied
 Message 53 by Taz, posted 05-27-2011 1:13 PM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 51 of 116 (617295)
05-27-2011 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Jaderis
05-27-2011 6:26 AM


Re: Here's another
Doesn't that just make you sick? Compare that to this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Jaderis, posted 05-27-2011 6:26 AM Jaderis has not replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4144 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 52 of 116 (617296)
05-27-2011 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Dogmafood
05-27-2011 10:26 AM


Re: Be Afraid
Most of the people who want to be police officers probably shouldn’t be allowed. The police in general need a great big dose of humility and they need to understand that the confidence of the public is critical.
I agree,
Politics have no place in law enforcement either, IMO. When you have republican/democrat issues, and a Sheriff who wants to be re-elected, it seems like that might effect how a dept is run.
More civilian oversight is needed, these guys work for us, we should have a say about rules of engagement...ect, I am not saying dictate the policy, but play an active part.
Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.
Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.

"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Dogmafood, posted 05-27-2011 10:26 AM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 53 of 116 (617310)
05-27-2011 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Dogmafood
05-27-2011 10:26 AM


Re: Be Afraid
Dog writes:
Well which is it Taz. They either speak the truth or they do not.
I knew better than to mention this to people who don't know about this. It's like trying to explain the ever changing nature of science and scientific uncertainty to someone who thinks the genesis account is better than science because it is ever-unchanging.
Nevermind about the whole truth thing. My mistake for bringing it up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Dogmafood, posted 05-27-2011 10:26 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Dogmafood, posted 05-27-2011 2:37 PM Taz has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 54 of 116 (617316)
05-27-2011 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Jaderis
05-27-2011 5:59 AM


Re: Be Afraid
If there were no shots heard in the microseconds that it took for Amadou to take out his wallet, why the several dozen bullets?
Well, there was a shot - when the cop tripped, his gun went off.
Keep in mind that, in a tense situation, people don't perceive events in the order that they happened.
I don't fault the cops in the Amadou Diallo case - they were approaching a man who matched the description of the violent criminal they were chasing, he turned and grabbed something under his jacket, then a shot went off and one of the cops stumbled.
Any human being is going to determine that they were under attack, especially if they already had an "attack mentality."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Jaderis, posted 05-27-2011 5:59 AM Jaderis has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by NoNukes, posted 05-29-2011 6:41 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 55 of 116 (617317)
05-27-2011 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Jaderis
05-27-2011 6:26 AM


Re: Here's another
This is an example of what I'm talking about - cops obsessed with "controlling the situation" to the extent that they use deadly force when faced with anything but immediate obsequience.
Also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP0f00_JMak&feature=player...
How come Jaderis can embed Youtubes but mine are just big blank spaces?
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Jaderis, posted 05-27-2011 6:26 AM Jaderis has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-27-2011 2:40 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 56 of 116 (617320)
05-27-2011 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Taz
05-27-2011 1:13 PM


Re: Be Afraid
Taz writes:
Nevermind about the whole truth thing. My mistake for bringing it up.
Must be a holdover from your police training.
No Taz, I understand exactly what you are saying. You are just wrong. If someone deliberately tries to misrepresent the truth then they are a liar. No matter how many facts they use.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Taz, posted 05-27-2011 1:13 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Taz, posted 05-27-2011 3:37 PM Dogmafood has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 116 (617321)
05-27-2011 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by crashfrog
05-27-2011 2:12 PM


test
seems to be working for me. I just copied the "embed" code that the site provided.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by crashfrog, posted 05-27-2011 2:12 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by crashfrog, posted 05-27-2011 3:03 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 58 of 116 (617322)
05-27-2011 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by New Cat's Eye
05-27-2011 2:40 PM


Re: test
I used both forms of the embed code, and both gave me a completely blank post. When I copied and pasted Jaderis's code in and changed the SRC attribute, I got a blank post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-27-2011 2:40 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 59 of 116 (617331)
05-27-2011 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Dogmafood
05-27-2011 2:37 PM


Re: Be Afraid
The truth isn't as simple as black and white. And even if you think you know the truth, after a while you will begin to doubt yourself when other accounts come to light.
The problem with the way you perceive things is you think cops either tell the truth or they're not.
Allow me to bring in a scientific example (this is after all a science forum). Most people think of the world in 3-d. And most people understand 0 dimension (a dot), 1 dimension (a line), 2 dimension (a square), and 3 dimension (a cube). But if you know better, then you will realize that there are in-betweens. Ever heard of fractal dimension?
The problem investigators usually run across is they will usually encounter different accounts from witnesses. And I'm talking about both civilians and cops. Nobody's account is 100% reliable. You know what the difference is between civilians and cops? Cops know how to sound more convincing (one of the first lessons I learned in the academy). This came as a shock to me, because I'd always lived my life thinking the best way to make sure you tell the truth is to give yourself a pause to recheck the facts in your mind. What I learned was that that pause, more often than not, is perceived by the public as fabricating facts.
The #1 first lesson every cop learns during training and on the job is it is better to appear to tell the truth than to actually tell the truth. I've caught so many cops bullshitting so many times while I was on the job.
I'm telling you this because nobody in the world is a mind-reader. After all the "facts" are gathered, the truth is as clear as mud. That's why there is no such thing as the absolute truth. In other words, there's no such thing as twisting the truth if the truth is as clear as mud. That's why cops are so good at presenting all the facts accurate but arranging them in a way that makes the truth appear in their favor.
I'm telling you this to warn you not to be so confident with what's truth and what's not. Trust me, you're dealing with professionals who are very good at making themselves look like they're telling the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Dogmafood, posted 05-27-2011 2:37 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Dogmafood, posted 05-27-2011 6:58 PM Taz has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 60 of 116 (617335)
05-27-2011 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Taz
05-23-2011 6:30 PM


What I'm thinking is whoever the person to authorize the swat entry had poor judgement. Especially when they knew a 4 yr old was around. Why not knap him when he was at work and then search his home?
By arresting suspects at their homes you open up more avenues for search and seizure. You can always claim that you saw the suspect reach into a drawer which then allows you to search that drawer, something that might not be allowed if the search is conducted while the suspect is at work or not at the scene.
Just as a general statement with respect to police, they see themselves as advocates of the prosecution. They will present the case that is most favorable for the DA. IOW, police are the gas and the defense is the brake. We can argue back and forth on whether this is the best way to do things, but the fact remains that this is the mindset of most police departments (as you seem to have experienced yourself).
A friend of mine recently spent time in Amsterdam. He loved it. What really suprised him was how helpful the police were. He said he actually got the impression that the Amsterdam police were really there to protect and serve the people. In America I think the public and the police have worked against one another for so long that we assume that this is how it is supposed to be. No longer do we focus on justice. We are more interested in who can win in court.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Taz, posted 05-23-2011 6:30 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Taz, posted 05-27-2011 4:05 PM Taq has not replied

  
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