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Author Topic:   What gives God the right to be "holy"?
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 91 of 138 (537654)
11-30-2009 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Pauline
11-30-2009 1:04 AM


If this is my last post in this thread, let me leave by saying, all you that despise the God of the Bible, JUST-IN-CASE, the Bible turns out to be true afterall, you will highly regret your words. Let the future reveal everything there is to know.
Ahh, good 'ole pascal and his pesky wager. Gosh, if only it were that easy.
"gee golly, if I turn my brain off, god sure is swell, might as well believe because I'm afraid to use my mind, it might hurt"
Like blue said, take off those rose colored glasses and see the forest for the trees. Don't just cover your ears and say "lalalalalala I can't hear you, you are all dirty, heathenous atheists. I won't listen, you hate god."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Pauline, posted 11-30-2009 1:04 AM Pauline has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 92 of 138 (537655)
11-30-2009 4:39 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Kitsune
11-30-2009 2:44 AM


Kitsune writes:
What Hooah said. But also, you're still saying that by the time a Christian is an adult, they should be believing that they are the unworthy dirt beneath God's feet. If you don't see how that can cause problems for people then I don't think I can clarify any further.
Christian? Christian!
Children aren't born Christians. Neither are they raised Christians. So by the time these children get to adulthood they can be unbelievers who'll have (hopefully) heard the gospel in appropriate manner. Or they'll be Christians because the power of the gospel has resulted in their being born again. Two possible situation only to which I'd say:
1) If they are Christians at this point then your point stumbles over my point made previously. Any Christian who majors on their being dirt on Gods shoe is a seriously mis-guided Christian. "You are a child of the living God man - start living like one!" ...says the gospel of God which has reinstated fallen man.
2) If they are not Christians then they will be unbelievers who have heard the gospel (hopefully) appropriately. That will mean that they will have heard about themselves as sinners, as evil doers, as lost. And will have heard that there is a remedy for their situation should they ever come to be convinced of that. It doesn't mean they'll have been brainwashed from childbirth to consider themselves dirt. You say you've studied Christianity prior to rejecting it but seem to have missed the glaring point: man doesn't convince man of the message of the gospel - God doesn. There's no point in beating a child over the head with it their whole life through. And no need.
-
I didn't say I did. I am training to be a counsellor. Religion brings a lot of people in.
I'm not surprised - if it's the kind of legalistic, repressive regieme you've been outlining.
My wifes training to be a counselling psychologist. She see's unbelief bring lots of people in.
-
Besides, I said that this negative view of the state of being human was only one reason I stopped being religious. The main one was that I was introduced to the ideas of other religions, after years of insular learning about just my own. I also learned that the story of the flood has undeniably clear parallels with flood stories that went before it, such as the epic of Gilgamesh, which helped me to see that I had been taught to believe in a mythology rather than the exclusive "truth" that I'd been told my religion was. I now look at the theistic religions of the world and see that the real truth is something beyond them; otherwise you have the problem of trying to prove why Yaweh is more real than Odin or Vishnu or Zeus, with the adherents of the other religions arguing most zealously with you.
Your study of Christianity should have instructed you on the chief pitfall of man: man going his own way, relying on himself and getting into trouble. The parable of the Prodigal Son, the rebelliousness of the Israelites, Adam and Eve ... it's a Bible drumbeat.
And here we have another example: you relying on you for arrival at truth. You relying on you to decide what is true and what is not. You relying on you to decide this god proved or that God proved.
Whereas God is the one who needs to prove himself to you. God, the truth, needs to reveal himself to you so that you can observe truth. You're not in a position to arrive at Truth yourself, Kitsune. You're a subjective creature or don't you know that?
(ps: aren't there Christians who don't believe in a literal floood, a literal Adam and Eve? You must have rejected Christianity for other reasons)
-
This stuff about God being the celestial parent who punishes you if you do wrong is old -- and it's also bizarre, since what parent would sentence their child to everlasting torment, no matter what it is they've done?
I'm becoming more and more inclined to suppose you haven't actually studied Christianity at all. That, or Pauls statement about "the things of God being mere foolishness" to those who are blind can be writ very large. I mean no insult, but surely you know the basic position is that people aren't born children of God. That they have to be re-born in order to be "given the right to become children of God"?
It won't be children of God who are condemned, if condemned. The Bible describes those who'll be condemned variously: the wicked, children of satan, God haters, enemies of God.
Everlasting torment is the state of those who opt to spend their existance outside the love of God. Jaywill made the point well elsewhere: if God is the source of all our blessings (whether we are currently lost or found) then what else would we expect an existance to be like were we to chose to remove ourselves totally and everlastingly from his presence. If not everlasting torment I mean.
If our being made in the image and likeness of God (albeit sullied by sin) is the reason why we; create, love, laugh, relate, enjoy, hope, feel peace ... and that image taken away is one consequence of our chosing to reject God and what he entails then where's the objection. We chose for it: what possible objection can there be to our receiving the consequences of our choice?
By all means believe something else if you like - but if objecting to Christianity then do get your objections straight. You might find you can't - which might prove a blessing at some point.
-
Personally, I'm inclined to believe that we get reincarnated. Though I'd also be OK with the idea that we return to the cosmic energy from whence we came; I used to believe that too. And guess what? I can still behave myself without worrying that I'll go to hell if I don't.
Personally, I'm inclined to believe that for which I have evidence. Evidence that convicts me. Whether it be the world is round, or God exists. If you've that evidence then fair enough.
-
I think that anyone who wants people to worship them has got psychological problems.
I think that anyone who provides a means whereby people who love them can express that love knows a thing or two about love. It is fitting that God be worshipped by people who love him - considering what he's done for those people, considering how low he stooped to pick them up.
Perhaps you've never been loved absolutely and unconditionally. In so far as you have been, can I suggest you worshipped the ground that person walked on?
Edited by iano, : insert the word (hopefully) twice near the top

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Kitsune, posted 11-30-2009 2:44 AM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by RickJB, posted 11-30-2009 10:29 AM iano has replied
 Message 135 by Kitsune, posted 12-02-2009 2:16 PM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 93 of 138 (537658)
11-30-2009 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by hooah212002
11-29-2009 7:49 PM


iano writes:
I'd view exposing a child to the gospel (and the need for it) in the same way as I'd view exposing a child to sex and sexuality: one page at a time > at a pace suitable for the childs stage of development.
hooah writes:
WOW. Just wow. The fact that you, an admitted person of faith, likens your particular flavor of religion to the teaching of sex. I find it abhorrent that this is the comparison that is drawn.
Your posts are sailing further and further from the shores of substance hooah and this reaction above is but a few more oar strokes in the wrong direction. Support your objections with reasoned argumentation or we won't be conversing for very long more.
Alright?
-
Shouldn't it be as simple as: "god is good and if you are good you go to heaven which is good."?
And if your not good (which implies sin - which implies a potential end result not= heaven?)..?
But no. You muddy the waters with sin and damnation.
Seems you've implied at the same conclusion as me. Question now is: can you be good enough?
-
It's all very well to have life-affirming thoughts but if that life is spend on a sinking Titanic then the enjoyment of the playing band only masks the icy waters to come.
That's a false dichotomy only you and people of your ilk believe. Our titanic doesn't sink. It just stops. End game. No icy water.
Do you see the word 'if' in my sentence?
-
I pose the same question as I did above. God doesn't show himself.
Perhaps you're not good enough?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by hooah212002, posted 11-29-2009 7:49 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by hooah212002, posted 11-30-2009 6:32 AM iano has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 94 of 138 (537664)
11-30-2009 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Pauline
11-30-2009 12:27 AM


Seriously, what is the intent of this thread? To blaspheme God? Then why wasn't the title "alright, thread for God-haters to gather, pour out their hateful words, demean believers, demean God, enjoy, and have great fun"? Why was I deceived into thinking that this actually was a discussion about the God of the bible?
You could try rebutting the points?!?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Pauline, posted 11-30-2009 12:27 AM Pauline has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 95 of 138 (537665)
11-30-2009 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Pauline
11-30-2009 1:04 AM


Dungeon Monster
This shows how you read what you want to see. The word is Dungeon Master and it is not a negative title in the slightest.
This is solid evidence that you are seeing this thread though a lens of faith and indignation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Pauline, posted 11-30-2009 1:04 AM Pauline has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 96 of 138 (537667)
11-30-2009 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by iano
11-30-2009 4:55 AM


Your posts are sailing further and further from the shores of substance hooah and this reaction above is but a few more oar strokes in the wrong direction. Support your objections with reasoned argumentation or we won't be conversing for very long more.
So you need to be shown why conparing teaching your loving religion to teaching sex to a child is abhorrant? I think that speaks for itself.
Perhaps you're not good enough?
Answer my question: what does god look like since you are implying you have seen him?
Perhaps it is YOU whom is not good enough to have seen His Noodley Holiness (He shows himself to me all the time. Lovely chap He is).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by iano, posted 11-30-2009 4:55 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by iano, posted 11-30-2009 6:20 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 97 of 138 (537681)
11-30-2009 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Pauline
11-30-2009 1:04 AM


garbage disposal spot for all God-haters to throw their tantrums
I'm a Atheist. How can I hate something that does not exist?

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Pauline, posted 11-30-2009 1:04 AM Pauline has not replied

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 98 of 138 (537697)
11-30-2009 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by iano
11-30-2009 4:39 AM


iano writes:
Everlasting torment is the state of those who opt to spend their existance outside the love of God.
Punishing your own creation for not accepting your "love". Lovely. The God you speak of appears to have some kind of borderline personality disorder.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by iano, posted 11-30-2009 4:39 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Larni, posted 11-30-2009 3:10 PM RickJB has not replied
 Message 100 by iano, posted 11-30-2009 6:10 PM RickJB has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 99 of 138 (537723)
11-30-2009 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by RickJB
11-30-2009 10:29 AM


The God you speak of appears to have some kind of borderline personality disorder.
I contended Narcissistic PD but this was poo pooed out of hand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by RickJB, posted 11-30-2009 10:29 AM RickJB has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 100 of 138 (537744)
11-30-2009 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by RickJB
11-30-2009 10:29 AM


RickJB writes:
Punishing your own creation for not accepting your "love". Lovely. The God you speak of appears to have some kind of borderline personality disorder.
A borderline reading comprehension disorder (on your part) fits the bill a tad better.
God punishes man for mans' willingly doing what he knows to be evil. That's but one consequence of chosing an existance outside the love of God: the just penalty for your sin is visited upon you. We can see then, that a man isn't punished for not accepting God's love and that saying so is but a semantical spin applied to things.
The torment I had in mind in my post had more to do with losing beneficial aspects we currently enjoy due to our being made in Gods image and likeness. No God for eternity? Then no image of God in which you were made - for eternity. And that will be a torment. Something chosen for by those who will occupy Hell.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by RickJB, posted 11-30-2009 10:29 AM RickJB has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-30-2009 6:49 PM iano has replied
 Message 110 by Larni, posted 12-01-2009 4:19 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 101 of 138 (537749)
11-30-2009 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by hooah212002
11-30-2009 6:32 AM


hooah writes:
So you need to be shown why conparing teaching your loving religion to teaching sex to a child is abhorrant? I think that speaks for itself
I was using the comparison to indicate the inappropriateness of fast forwarding to a point unsuitable for the childs stage of development. Talking of Hellfire and Brimstone isn't suitable teaching for a young child. Nor is talk of the intricacies of how babies are made. Talk of either isn't an abuse at the right time in the persons development.
That was the point, your abhorrance needs another vehicle to ride around in. God knows there are vehicles aplenty for the unbeliever to whet his beak on.
-
Answer my question: what does god look like since you are implying you have seen him?
You're a spiritually blind man, hooah (according to the Bible). You can't describe the quality grey to a physically blind man. Nor God to a spiritually blind one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by hooah212002, posted 11-30-2009 6:32 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by hooah212002, posted 11-30-2009 7:48 PM iano has not replied

  
Teapots&unicorns
Member (Idle past 4888 days)
Posts: 178
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 102 of 138 (537757)
11-30-2009 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by iano
11-30-2009 6:10 PM


The torment I had in mind in my post had more to do with losing beneficial aspects we currently enjoy due to our being made in Gods image and likeness. No God for eternity? Then no image of God in which you were made - for eternity. And that will be a torment. Something chosen for by those who will occupy Hell.
So 'God's image' is not eternal?
T&U

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by iano, posted 11-30-2009 6:10 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by iano, posted 11-30-2009 7:13 PM Teapots&unicorns has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 103 of 138 (537760)
11-30-2009 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Teapots&unicorns
11-30-2009 6:49 PM


So 'God's image' is not eternal?
In the sense of our being made in it? Not necessarily.
If you're supposing that because an object shaped in a particular image is altered, then the object on which is is based must also alter - then I'd question your reasoning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-30-2009 6:49 PM Teapots&unicorns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-30-2009 7:24 PM iano has replied

  
Teapots&unicorns
Member (Idle past 4888 days)
Posts: 178
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 104 of 138 (537763)
11-30-2009 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by iano
11-30-2009 7:13 PM


So 'God's image' is not eternal?[/qs] In the sense of our being made in it? Not necessarily.
If you're supposing that because an object shaped in a particular image is altered, then the object on which is is based must also alter - then I'd question your reasoning.[/qs] So then the soul does not have to suffer forever?
Why, iano- you've given the point to me!
T&U

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by iano, posted 11-30-2009 7:13 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by iano, posted 11-30-2009 7:50 PM Teapots&unicorns has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 105 of 138 (537767)
11-30-2009 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by iano
11-30-2009 6:20 PM


I was using the comparison to indicate the inappropriateness of fast forwarding to a point unsuitable for the childs stage of development. Talking of Hellfire and Brimstone isn't suitable teaching for a young child. Nor is talk of the intricacies of how babies are made. Talk of either isn't an abuse at the right time in the persons development.
Thank you. I concede my point then. I guess I was just confused why you would use such an reference. You made your point and I get it now.
You're a spiritually blind man, hooah (according to the Bible). You can't describe the quality grey to a physically blind man. Nor God to a spiritually blind one.
Way to dodge the question. Either god is or god isn't. He has physical attributes, yes? God is real, yes? (without getting into the "what do you define as real?". We can use the generally accepted term, I think) If you try to say he is just spiritual or just supernatural, YOU can't have seen him the way you are implying.

Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by iano, posted 11-30-2009 6:20 PM iano has not replied

  
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