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Author Topic:   On the verge of a break-through
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 1 of 112 (321772)
06-15-2006 8:54 AM


Ok, I know we have been through this like a zillion times, but I have one last question. It is rather insignificant, but I felt the need to ask it. Also, I don't want to offend anyone, but I am being honest.
I will sum up my total view on homosexuals, and same-sex marriage.
I hold two views, the first is one that I had most of my life, and is a non-religious view:
I was raised pretty much liberal, and was always taught that homosexuals are normal, and to treat them fairly. This is the way I always behaved, never discriminated, or held prejudice. As I grew older, I felt more and more uncomfortable about homosexuals, and my ignorance towards it exists. I just can't understand how two people of the same sex can be attracted to each other. It bothers me to see 2 men kissing, or 2 women kissing, holding hands, etc. I always thought, well tough shit on me, it's none of my fucking business. Fine, not everybody likes everything, and there is always bound to be someone offended somewhere. I am sure when I fly my model planes, that I am offending someone.
In America we are free, that means that the homosexual, and my plane flying should be able to exist in harmony, and we should be grateful for it.
Now, same-sex marriage. To me, it just never was, just like ice-cream isn’t steak. To me, marriage was supposed to be a symbol of a family. No matter what anyone says in this life, it is a sperm and an egg that begins life (technology excluded). It is a union between 2 people with the intentions of starting a family. If your unable to have kids, then you can always adopt. even a marriage where the couple decides not to have children, seems empty to me, like something is missing. again people will argue that is my narrow-minded view of the world. But I don't feel it is so narrow-minded.
Given the choice, people would always choose to be raised by their biological parents, provided they were treated with love. Rather than be raised by foster parents, or homosexual couples.
But, this is not life. Natural parents treat their children wrong, and there are many kids that have no parents, and need opportunities in life, and a gay couple would be awesome for them. Foster parents too.
I see all sides of the debate. I am a middle person, I always fall pretty close to the middle of any debate, even if it appears that I am one sided. (I may just be debating one sided, to help see both sides).
Regardless of all I just said, I still don't feel in my heart that same-sex relations, and marriage is "right". Screw me, oh well. It's who I am, and I can't help it. Please keep in mind, that I do not hate! It's how we got here. Everyone was a by-product of a sperm meeting an egg. It's how we evolved, or how we were made, whatever. It is the ultimate symbol of our race continuing to exist on this planet, a man making love to a woman, and to me it's what marriage should be a symbol of too.
I still don't know if we are born this way. I do know that if all men and woman stop having sex, then we cease to exist.
This is what I got out of debating in these forums, with homosexuals that I know, and life.
Enter America.
Now, for the religious view.
This may surprise you, but from a religious view, I find through my interpretation of the bible, that I must accept it in our government, but not for our leaders in churches.
It is a sin, period.
We are all sinners.
Leaders in churches should not be letting sin lead their lives, but try to live for God. That's what repentance is about. Of course we are not perfect, and we all sin, but that doesn't give us car-blanch to sin. If I was a Pastor, I would not be expected to bring my ho's into church with me. If I did it on the side, and got busted, I wouldn't expect to be a Pastor anymore.
Our job as a Christian is to love God with all our heart mind and soul, love others like we love ourselves. Not judge people.
If we can forgive ourselves for our own sins, then we can forgive others.
America was started to get away from religious persecution, so that we can live in a place where religion doesn't dictate who and what we are, but are free to express who we are, anyway we want. That means homosexuals too. To be against homosexuals in any kind of way is a detriment to our way of life.
So much for my 2 views on it.
I hate being called a bigot. My secular reasoning for it, makes me think that I am not a bigot, because you just can't call a truck, a plane.
I have decided to over look my secular view on it, because I don't want to be a hypocrite of any kind, or be a bigot of any kind. I have a battle of principals going on inside me.
Regardless of everything I just said, I have decided to be for same-sex marriage in our government, and let God deal with it. So pretty much I am forcing my religious views on others, and suppressing my secular view on it.
So here's the question, am I wrong now, for forcing my religious views on the rest of the nation?
Just try to answer the question, and not start a whole big arguement on why same-sex marriage is ok, I mentioned that I will support it.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by nwr, posted 06-15-2006 9:22 AM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 3 by jar, posted 06-15-2006 12:21 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 4 by sidelined, posted 06-15-2006 12:43 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 5 by rgb, posted 06-15-2006 1:02 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 12 by Parasomnium, posted 06-15-2006 4:54 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 15 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2006 5:13 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 25 by mike the wiz, posted 06-16-2006 10:54 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 58 by Jaderis, posted 06-18-2006 4:54 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 63 by ramoss, posted 06-18-2006 8:47 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 79 by berberry, posted 06-19-2006 1:39 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 92 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-23-2006 4:02 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 2 of 112 (321783)
06-15-2006 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
06-15-2006 8:54 AM


I see all sides of the debate.
Then one option would be to just sit back and watch what unfolds.
There isn't any particular decision you have to make today. There is no legislation being considered one way or the other.
Oh, yes - there is some stupid bill in congress to descrate the constitution by putting in a ridiculous amendment that does not in any way belong in the constitution. We should all work to protect the constitution from such ugly pollution. (Hmm, then there is the "flag desecration" amendment, yet another ignorant proposal to desecrate the constitution).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 06-15-2006 8:54 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 112 (321860)
06-15-2006 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
06-15-2006 8:54 AM


So here's the question, am I wrong now, for forcing my religious views on the rest of the nation?
You are not forcing your religious views on the rest of the nation.
If there is a GOD, and if that GOD considers homosexuality a sin, and if there is life after death and if that GOD does judge folk then that GOD will make some determination about the fate of homosexuals.
In the meantime, life for many people here on earth will be improved. You and your personal relationships will not be effected.
In all, I believe you have made a wise, Christian decision.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 06-15-2006 8:54 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by riVeRraT, posted 06-15-2006 5:17 PM jar has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 4 of 112 (321868)
06-15-2006 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
06-15-2006 8:54 AM


riVeRrat
Given the choice, people would always choose to be raised by their biological parents, provided they were treated with love. Rather than be raised by foster parents, or homosexual couples.
This is an interesting statment here. Just how do you suppose such a determination can be made? Since I know of no one myself who has been rasied by their biological parents and foster parents and homosexual couple this statement is false on the face of it. You cannot state which way you would prefer since you cannot compare the process of being raised by each in your lifetime.
You can make a choice based only on what you have already been raised by. Now can you find me a poll wherein equal representation of all three conditions, raised lovingly, would choose another option to the one they were raised with?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 06-15-2006 8:54 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by riVeRraT, posted 06-15-2006 5:10 PM sidelined has not replied

  
rgb
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 112 (321881)
06-15-2006 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
06-15-2006 8:54 AM


riverrat rights
quote:
Regardless of everything I just said, I have decided to be for same-sex marriage in our government, and let God deal with it.
I'm sorry to hear you have decided to start supporting same sex marriage in the government. As a nation, we must fight to keep same sex marriage out of churches and public institutions. We must protect our right not to have same sex marriage in this nation. And as a nation, we will be judged.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 06-15-2006 8:54 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by sidelined, posted 06-15-2006 1:13 PM rgb has replied
 Message 11 by macaroniandcheese, posted 06-15-2006 4:28 PM rgb has not replied
 Message 18 by riVeRraT, posted 06-15-2006 5:23 PM rgb has replied
 Message 78 by ohnhai, posted 06-19-2006 9:12 AM rgb has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 6 of 112 (321886)
06-15-2006 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by rgb
06-15-2006 1:02 PM


rgb
We must protect our right not to have same sex marriage in this nation. And as a nation, we will be judged.
Why are you threatened by same sex marriage?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by rgb, posted 06-15-2006 1:02 PM rgb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by rgb, posted 06-15-2006 1:20 PM sidelined has replied

  
rgb
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 112 (321892)
06-15-2006 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by sidelined
06-15-2006 1:13 PM


If the Francais comes in and want you to change the definition of the word "email" into both electronic mail and oral sex, wouldn't you fight to keep "email" the way it is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by sidelined, posted 06-15-2006 1:13 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Dan Carroll, posted 06-15-2006 1:24 PM rgb has not replied
 Message 9 by sidelined, posted 06-15-2006 1:26 PM rgb has not replied
 Message 10 by nwr, posted 06-15-2006 1:46 PM rgb has not replied
 Message 16 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2006 5:16 PM rgb has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 112 (321894)
06-15-2006 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by rgb
06-15-2006 1:20 PM


In your honor, the next time my girlfriend goes down on me, I'll be sure to go around bragging the next day that "I totally sent her an attachment, if you knowamsayin'."

"We had survived to turn on the History Channel
And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied:
You're what happens when two substances collide
And by all accounts you really should have died."
-Andrew Bird

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by rgb, posted 06-15-2006 1:20 PM rgb has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 9 of 112 (321896)
06-15-2006 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by rgb
06-15-2006 1:20 PM


rgb
How would that be a problem? A BJ by any other name would feel as good.
"Hey,darlin'! How 'bout some email?"
Works for me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by rgb, posted 06-15-2006 1:20 PM rgb has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 10 of 112 (321907)
06-15-2006 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by rgb
06-15-2006 1:20 PM


If the Francais comes in and want you to change the definition of the word "email" into both electronic mail and oral sex, wouldn't you fight to keep "email" the way it is?
Some time around 10 years ago, they changed the meaning of the word "email", so that it now means a conveyance for installing viruses, trojans, etc., (including advertisements of watches, viagra, etc).
I survived. I even managed to avoid the viruses and trojans.
The world changes, whether we like it or not.
Cultures evolve over time. As part of the culture, we can be involved in the change. However, the religious right want to withdraw from the culture, pull their children out of the public schools and home school them. Yet they expect to pass laws to stop the tides of cultural change. They will be about as effective as was King Canute in holding back the tide.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by rgb, posted 06-15-2006 1:20 PM rgb has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 11 of 112 (321966)
06-15-2006 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by rgb
06-15-2006 1:02 PM


And as a nation, we will be judged.
provide evidence for this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by rgb, posted 06-15-2006 1:02 PM rgb has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 12 of 112 (321971)
06-15-2006 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
06-15-2006 8:54 AM


Commendation for riVeRraT
riVeRraT,
Would it answer your question if I nominated your post for POTM? I think you're to be commended for your candid description of the struggle within you. You're not forcing your views on anyone, if I'm reading you well.
The only problem I have is with your phrase "I have decided to be for same-sex marriage in our government". What does that mean? That only members of the government are allowed to marry someone of the same sex? Surely not! But if not, then what?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 06-15-2006 8:54 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by riVeRraT, posted 06-15-2006 5:13 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 13 of 112 (321974)
06-15-2006 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by sidelined
06-15-2006 12:43 PM


You can make a choice based only on what you have already been raised by.
Maybe yes, maybe no. I am not giving any absolutes. It is just the answer I recieve from everyone I ask.
People who don't know their biological parents sure wish they did, unless they are resentful. Then they just want to know why they did what they did.
I just returned from a trip to Boston, with my sister-in-laws husband, who is 42 and just meet his real mother for the first time. He was raised by not-so-nice people, and was resentful towards his real mother. He did not understand why some of his brothers and sisters got to be raised by his real mother, and he didn't. It was a monumentous occasion. It's more involved than that, but the lesson I learned from it is part of the reason I made the satement I did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by sidelined, posted 06-15-2006 12:43 PM sidelined has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 14 of 112 (321975)
06-15-2006 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Parasomnium
06-15-2006 4:54 PM


Re: Commendation for riVeRraT
The only problem I have is with your phrase "I have decided to be for same-sex marriage in our government".
In our nation. You can be married by the government. That is what I meant.
But by the church would be up to the individual church.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Parasomnium, posted 06-15-2006 4:54 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 15 of 112 (321976)
06-15-2006 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
06-15-2006 8:54 AM


Regardless of everything I just said, I have decided to be for same-sex marriage in our government, and let God deal with it. So pretty much I am forcing my religious views on others, and suppressing my secular view on it.
So here's the question, am I wrong now, for forcing my religious views on the rest of the nation?
Who exactly are you forcing anything on?
The people who oppose gay marriage certainly aren't going to get gay married themselves, so you're not forcing anything on them. They don't even have to see those unions as "real" marriages if they don't want.
The people who would get gay marriages if they could are already living in gay unions of some kind, so you're not forcing anything on them; you're letting them take advantage of something they've desired for some time, now. So there's nobody forcing anything there, either.
I don't see what you're "forcing" on anybody else. Religious people have to get beyond this ridiculous, idiotic idea that somehow their choices are being limited if another person has the ability to do something the religious don't like. People getting gay married doesn't force anything on you. People having abortions doesn't force anything on you. You have free speech so if you don't like it, you can say so. That we prevent you from doing more than that isn't "forcing" you to do anything; it's preventing you from coercing someone else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 06-15-2006 8:54 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
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