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Author Topic:   truth preserving logic?(value of human life)
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 151 (337145)
08-01-2006 5:12 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by inkorrekt
07-31-2006 10:33 PM


Re: Two ways to look at it
1) Human life has no value if we assume that our lives evolved from a single cellular organism through random chance and mutation. We are here just because we arrived here.We will die oneday and disappear.
This is an accurate view of life. One must hold to this view and not be led down the primrose path of sentimentality.

This message is a reply to:
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kalimero
Member (Idle past 2445 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 92 of 151 (337408)
08-02-2006 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by nwr
07-30-2006 2:50 PM


Re: Seems backwards
It's not entirely clear to me that Israelis value human life, particularly if the humans are Arabs.
Don't generalize!
Israelis value human life no less then you do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by nwr, posted 07-30-2006 2:50 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by robinrohan, posted 08-02-2006 2:42 PM kalimero has not replied
 Message 100 by arachnophilia, posted 08-04-2006 11:20 PM kalimero has replied
 Message 102 by Ben!, posted 08-05-2006 1:51 AM kalimero has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 151 (337410)
08-02-2006 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by kalimero
08-02-2006 2:32 PM


Re: Seems backwards
Israelis value human life no less then you do.
Of course they do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by kalimero, posted 08-02-2006 2:32 PM kalimero has not replied

  
inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6082 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 94 of 151 (337555)
08-02-2006 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by ringo
07-31-2006 10:44 PM


Re: Two ways to look at it
On the other hand, if we came about becuse of some marvelous chance, we truly are one in a million million million million
This cannot happen.Why? If some one asked me where did I come from, my answer will be,"From my mother's womb". How did this happen? My parents were together. Still how? one sperm out of more than 1 million sperms fertilized one egg. This is a statistical improbability. For me to be conceived, it had to be THAT specific sperm and THAT specific egg which must fertilize. If it had been different eggs/ sperms, it would not be me. It would be somebody else. Chance does not produce specific Characteristics. It can only happen if someone took one sperm and fertilized with one egg.
Edited by inkorrekt, : spelling errors

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by ringo, posted 07-31-2006 10:44 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 08-02-2006 11:11 PM inkorrekt has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 95 of 151 (337570)
08-02-2006 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by inkorrekt
08-02-2006 9:47 PM


Re: Two ways to look at it
inkorrect writes:
... if we came about becuse of some marvelous chance, we truly are one in a million million million million
This cannot happen.... It can only happen if someone took one sperm and fertilized with one egg.
Congratulations. You missed my point by 100%.
I said, "If we came about because of some marvelous chance, we truly are one in a million million million million."
My point is that if we came about by chance, it would be much more wonderful than if we were merely a gleam in the eye of some cosmic agency. If we came about by chance, life would be much more valuable than if we were merely a commodity created for the amusement of some celestial spook.
The more improbable our origin, the less likely it is to be repeated.
Hence, the more rare and valuable we are.
Edited by Ringo, : Spelling.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by inkorrekt, posted 08-02-2006 9:47 PM inkorrekt has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by inkorrekt, posted 08-04-2006 4:48 PM ringo has replied

  
inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6082 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 96 of 151 (337952)
08-04-2006 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by ringo
08-02-2006 11:11 PM


Re: Two ways to look at it
Hence, the more rare and valuable we are.
This seems to be a twisted logic

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 08-02-2006 11:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by ringo, posted 08-04-2006 6:10 PM inkorrekt has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 97 of 151 (337967)
08-04-2006 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by inkorrekt
08-04-2006 4:48 PM


Re: Two ways to look at it
inkorrect writes:
This seems to be a twisted logic
It isn't rocket science.
If human life arose by chance and if that chance event is extremely improbable, then human life is very rare (on a cosmic scale). Rare things are valuable.
On the other hand, if human life was "purposely" created, then it could be created again and again and again, anywhere in the universe. It would be as common as dirt - and almost as valuable.
If you think there's a problem with that logic, kindly point it out.
Edited by Ringo, : Capitalization.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by inkorrekt, posted 08-04-2006 4:48 PM inkorrekt has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by inkorrekt, posted 08-13-2006 8:54 PM ringo has replied
 Message 138 by Ben!, posted 08-14-2006 1:51 AM ringo has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 98 of 151 (337993)
08-04-2006 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Trump won
07-28-2006 8:50 AM


quote:
Pure altruism doesn't work for those that value their own life over others.
You didn't address nwr's point at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Trump won, posted 07-28-2006 8:50 AM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 99 of 151 (338008)
08-04-2006 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by nator
08-04-2006 7:56 PM


A'dieu
I apologize for what I wrote here.
Bye guys
God bless you all
Edited by -messenjah of one, : build bridges-jar

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 100 of 151 (338039)
08-04-2006 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by kalimero
08-02-2006 2:32 PM


Re: Seems backwards
Israelis value human life no less then you do.
i'm not entirely sure we value human life. we sure pretend to a lot over here, but i don't think anyone actually cares. we keep corpses alive -- but use stem cells to fight disease? hell no! and the death penalty, that's ok too!
actually, i suspect it's more an issue of the government. i don't think, for instance, that the american public is for killing iraqi civilians. but we're sold on a war by our government, and there is collateral damage -- often we disregard the collateral costs for the ideological and political bs we're served. the government, to a degree, is taken hostage by the radical fundamentalist contingents, only to be partially moderated by the more secular mainstream.
i suspect there is something of a similar condition in israel. most israelis i've talked to have been quite reasonable regarding their place in the middle east, and compromise with the palestinians. only a few have been rabid anti-palestinian. most of the people with the position that i've heard from are american jews. i suspect living there for a while, and serving the two years in the army, probably has a kind of levelling effect.
i just find it odd when the christian fundamentalists stand up and fight for israel in equally as black-and-white terms are they fight for america. "you're for us, or against us!" what amuses me greatly is when they call me an antisemite because i question or speak against actions of the israeli government. yes, clearly, i'm just a jew-hater. that's why i argue for the jewish perspective on the torah and nevi'im, and why i end all my posts with a nice big hebrew name.
anyways, as an israeli yourself, what's your take on the current war? do you think israel's response is neccessary and proportionate?
Edited by arachnophilia, : typo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by kalimero, posted 08-02-2006 2:32 PM kalimero has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 103 by kalimero, posted 08-06-2006 4:49 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1399 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 101 of 151 (338053)
08-05-2006 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by arachnophilia
08-04-2006 11:20 PM


Re: Seems backwards
i'm not entirely sure we value human life. we sure pretend to a lot over here, but i don't think anyone actually cares. we keep corpses alive -- but use stem cells to fight disease? hell no! and the death penalty, that's ok too!
People love in different ways.
Keeping corpses alive is a misguided attempt by the naive, to preserve life as they understand it.
Not using stem cells to fight disease is an attempt to keep human life as special and sanctified--as it needs to be--and avoid treating human life as a practical thing.
The death penalty... not much excuses for that one. It treats human life as a practical thing and ruins the sancitity of human life which we have to preserve.
But two out of three is a bit better than what you suggested!
But I'm just throwing myself into the first post I see. Sorry about that!

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Ben!
Member (Idle past 1399 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 102 of 151 (338054)
08-05-2006 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by kalimero
08-02-2006 2:32 PM


Re: Seems backwards
Israelis value human life no less then you do.
I don't think this is necessarily true. And even if it isn't, it's not an insult. I think a culture that doesn't value human life (in general) can work. Of course such a culture would not "work well with others"... so they better be damn strong... or live in a world where everybody else is a sucker.
I've yet to meet a person who truly valued human life. I think to do so would be to attempt to boost the "lowest" lives, even at the cost of the "higher" living. But others might think differently.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by kalimero, posted 08-02-2006 2:32 PM kalimero has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by kalimero, posted 08-06-2006 5:03 PM Ben! has replied
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kalimero
Member (Idle past 2445 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 103 of 151 (338283)
08-06-2006 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by arachnophilia
08-04-2006 11:20 PM


Re: Seems backwards
anyways, as an israeli yourself, what's your take on the current war? do you think israel's response is neccessary and proportionate?
I think the response was (and is) dispropotionate but we do have to bring back those soldiers that they kiddnaped - and trying to talk to Hezbolla is not a good idea - Israel has let go lots of terrorists "with blood on thier hands" (as is said in Israel) and in return recived nothing - they still will not even give us any information on Ron Arad (Israeli pilot).
What would you do in this situation? international pressure? (a loud bark but no bite)
How do you suppose we respond to this kind of action? kiddnaping two Israeli soldiers in gaza (killing one), and two in Lebanon. launching missiles on civilian populations.
What would you do?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by arachnophilia, posted 08-04-2006 11:20 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by jar, posted 08-06-2006 5:06 PM kalimero has replied
 Message 114 by arachnophilia, posted 08-06-2006 10:38 PM kalimero has replied

  
kalimero
Member (Idle past 2445 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 104 of 151 (338284)
08-06-2006 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Ben!
08-05-2006 1:51 AM


Re: Seems backwards
I don't think this is necessarily true. And even if it isn't, it's not an insult.
I never meant it as an insult. I was just saying that the Israel you see on the news (CNN and FOX...) is very different from the Israel I see. I see alot of caring people trying to get along with their neighbours (most of them anyway).
There are alot of crazy people (religious fanatics...) like any other country, but they are a minority, most Israelis want peace - and I think this was shown in the overwhelming support for the Gaza pullout.
I think a culture that doesn't value human life (in general) can work. Of course such a culture would not "work well with others"... so they better be damn strong... or live in a world where everybody else is a sucker.
I agree, but I suspect that within this culture any group of people willing to protect one another (valuing each others life) will have a definite advantage - wheather they are capable of taking over the society or just maintaining equalibrium is dependent on the initial formation of the society (what we have to start with).
I've yet to meet a person who truly valued human life.
what do you mean "truly"?
-absolutly?
-honestly?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Ben!, posted 08-05-2006 1:51 AM Ben! has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Ben!, posted 08-07-2006 12:55 AM kalimero has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 105 of 151 (338287)
08-06-2006 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by kalimero
08-06-2006 4:49 PM


Re: Seems backwards
What would you do in this situation?
Work very hard to make Lebanon a viable Nation State, increase foreign aid to Lebanon and encourage other nations to do that as well, help get the Beruit Stock Exchange going, increase exchange students between Israel and Lebanon, turn Mossad loose with a "plausable deniability mandate", flood the area of southern Lebanon with favors such as health care and job opportunities, try to build a picture in the world community of a long suffering Israel as opposed to the current image of playground bully, look for possible joint economic ventures with Lebanon.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by kalimero, posted 08-06-2006 4:49 PM kalimero has replied

Replies to this message:
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