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Author Topic:   Weekend at Bernie's
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


(2)
Message 16 of 36 (773702)
12-07-2015 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Jon
12-07-2015 7:16 PM


Re: Education on Merit
A gene for standardized testing?
That's a little ridiculous as far as rebuttals go.
There is a general correlation between SAT scores and IQ scores (though, of course, correlation is not causation).
Genetics plays a role in determining IQ scores.
However, note that genetics is only a part of a much bigger picture -- and the biological determinism argument correlating race, genetics, and IQ has been very effectively refuted by Stephen J. Gould in The Mismeasure of Man.
SAT tests are nonsense, and so are IQ tests.
Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Jon, posted 12-07-2015 7:16 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
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Genomicus
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


(5)
Message 17 of 36 (773703)
12-07-2015 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Jon
12-07-2015 7:32 PM


Re: Education on Merit
Affirmative Action is to make guilty white folk feel better about themselves without actually having to do anything to help folks who actually need it.
You sound just like those kids on College Confidential who whine about being rejected from Ivy Leagues "because I'm white!"
Affirmative Action has nothing to do with white guilt. It's meant to compensate for -- to a limited degree -- the decades of institutionalized racism that had (and still has) a propensity for channeling white kids towards top-tier colleges and black and other kids towards the prison complex.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Jon, posted 12-07-2015 7:32 PM Jon has replied

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 18 of 36 (773710)
12-08-2015 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by RAZD
12-07-2015 6:00 PM


When tax rates were more progressive from bottom to top and those who benefited most from the economy paid the most, the economy boomed.
There is a short term effect, as I said. Long term it's detrimental - that's why no country on earth has extremly low corporate taxation and extremely high personal taxation, it distorts markets. Taxation has to be fair to work.
I'm a big fan of the Scandanavian model of high taxation and high benefits. I'm not arguing for low taxation, I'm arguing for high but fair and transparent taxation.
conservative crap propaganda. Strong unions tend to cause just distributions of profits to those doing the work that results in the profit.
Alternatively, economic truth that you don't like to hear. Unions are a reaction to unfair labour markets, they ossify into protectionism if they get enough power and make the 'them and us' system even worse.
My problem with unions is that they should be obsoleted by incorporating the benefits of unions into the general economy to the benefit of all workers -- an economy with a social consciousness, which means a minimum living wage and full health benefits
Which was exactly what I said.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 36 (773712)
12-08-2015 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Genomicus
12-07-2015 8:05 PM


Re: Education on Merit
I don't understand what you're objecting to.
The fact that everyone has natural talents is no reason not to reward folks in proportion to their achievements.
If you don't want to measure academic achievement with SAT and IQ tests, that's fine. There are plenty of other, more meaningful and more diverse, metrics for assessing this. (In fact, I didn't even have standardized test scores in mind when I made my original postthat was all you )

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 36 (773713)
12-08-2015 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Genomicus
12-07-2015 8:13 PM


Re: Education on Merit
Affirmative Action has nothing to do with white guilt. It's meant to compensate for -- to a limited degree -- the decades of institutionalized racism that had (and still has) a propensity for channeling white kids towards top-tier colleges and black and other kids towards the prison complex.
What you just described is white guilt.
But in any case, Affirmative Action has nothing to do with getting poor folks into college (as RAZD suggested it did).

Love your enemies!

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 21 of 36 (773724)
12-08-2015 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Jon
12-08-2015 6:46 AM


Re: Education on Merit
Jon writes:
The fact that everyone has natural talents is no reason not to reward folks in proportion to their achievements.
The problem is that people who happen to be born on the wrong side of the tracks are less likely to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. It's easier to "achieve" when your parents are paying for the result.
The fact is that a lot of potential is lost because some people never get an opportunity to achieve what they need to go on to further achievements.

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Genomicus
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


(1)
Message 22 of 36 (773732)
12-08-2015 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Jon
12-08-2015 6:46 AM


Re: Education on Merit
I don't understand what you're objecting to.
Genetic social stratification because some are more "able" to get access to higher education by virtue of their genome sequences. Standardized testing is an enabler of that stratification, particularly when combined with a wealthy background.
The fact that everyone has natural talents is no reason not to reward folks in proportion to their achievements.
Why should we view "higher education" as a kind of "reward" in the first place? Why don't we view higher education as a social investment in the individual? It's society that will reap enormous rewards from a well-educated populace.
If you don't want to measure academic achievement with SAT and IQ tests, that's fine. There are plenty of other, more meaningful and more diverse, metrics for assessing this.
I'm sure these methods would not contribute to a wide gap between the wealthy and the underprivileged, right?
What you just described is white guilt.
That's a singularly reductionist perspective of white views concerning Affirmative Action. I doubt many, if not all, of those who identify as white on this forum would say that their support for Affirmative Action stems from some weird kind of guilt.
Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.
Edited by Genomicus, : Typo. I wrote this with only a couple hours of sleep.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Jon, posted 12-08-2015 6:46 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 36 (773776)
12-08-2015 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Genomicus
12-08-2015 11:18 AM


Re: Education on Merit
At 5'4" I don't expect the government to subsidize me going to basketball camp to realize my life-long dream of dribbling with the pros.
It's a fact that folks are born with different talents. A wise society will nurture the ones that exist, not mindlessly throw money at the ones that don't.
There are many improvements we can make to the educational system. Many of those improvements will leave our society as a whole smarter and better off.
But free bachelors degrees to anyone with a few years to burn isn't one of those improvements.
That's a singularly reductionist perspective of white views concerning Affirmative Action. I doubt many, if not all, of those who identify as white on this forum would say that their support for Affirmative Action stems from some weird kind of guilt.
Years of Affirmative Action have accomplished nothing.
The reasons are pretty obvious, but scores of white folk would rather feel good about themselves than do anything that matters.
It's clear the only purpose of AA is to help white folk feel better about themselves for being white.
Anyway, this thread isn't about AA. My comment to RAZD was regarding his implication that AA was meant to help poor people. The fact that AA laws and standards revolve around race, gender, etc. shows that that's not true; AA isn't about economic status.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 25 by NoNukes, posted 12-09-2015 11:18 AM Jon has not replied
 Message 26 by ringo, posted 12-09-2015 11:31 AM Jon has replied

  
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


(6)
Message 24 of 36 (773778)
12-08-2015 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Jon
12-08-2015 6:31 PM


Re: Education on Merit
At 5'4" I don't expect the government to subsidize me going to basketball camp to realize my life-long dream of dribbling with the pros.
I'm not making an even remotely analogous argument.
It's a fact that folks are born with different talents. A wise society will nurture the ones that exist, not mindlessly throw money at the ones that don't.
It's a fact that people are born with the capacity to develop multiple talents. Higher education allows these talents (critical thinking, for example) to be developed. A wise society will nurture all individuals, for all individuals are capable of developing beneficial talents. You're making a very biological determinism-esque argument.
But free bachelors degrees to anyone with a few years to burn isn't one of those improvements.
Umm, yeah, many people seeking associates or bachelor's degrees aren't people who are doing that just because they have a "few years to burn." It's because they are seeking a means out of a poverty cycle.
Oh, and you say that free bachelor's degrees isn't one of "those improvements." What makes you think that?
Years of Affirmative Action have accomplished nothing.
Except that you're wrong. See, e.g., here, here, here, here, and here.
Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.
Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(4)
Message 25 of 36 (773799)
12-09-2015 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Jon
12-08-2015 6:31 PM


Re: Education on Merit
It's a fact that folks are born with different talents. A wise society will nurture the ones that exist, not mindlessly throw money at the ones that don't.
While this is true, it turns out that the average person is sufficiently talented to benefit from a college education at the BA or BS level, and that plenty of well below average intelligence people can successfully complete a college curriculum as well. Some students may require more assistance, tutoring, and hand holding than others, but if you believe such efforts are wasted, you need to present a case for that.
It is important that the best and brightest be thoroughly educated because we need educated thinkers, but is also best for society if the over whelming majority of people have at least an undergraduate education. There are of course plenty of countries that work on models more similar to the ones you suggest. China and India come to mind as countries which cut off education with government regulations. Perhaps you can make your case by explaining how well those systems work.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(5)
Message 26 of 36 (773800)
12-09-2015 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Jon
12-08-2015 6:31 PM


Re: Education on Merit
Jon writes:
It's a fact that folks are born with different talents. A wise society will nurture the ones that exist, not mindlessly throw money at the ones that don't.
A wise society won't pretend that it can assess people's talents at first glance. How can you possibly tell who will be a great scientist before you teach him any science?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Jon, posted 12-08-2015 6:31 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 36 (773810)
12-09-2015 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by ringo
12-09-2015 11:31 AM


Re: Education on Merit
They're eighteen years old. They've been in school for upwards of thirteen years.
How the hell is that a 'first glance'?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by ringo, posted 12-09-2015 11:31 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by RAZD, posted 12-09-2015 5:46 PM Jon has replied
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 12-10-2015 10:57 AM Jon has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 28 of 36 (773832)
12-09-2015 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Jon
12-09-2015 1:35 PM


Re: Education on Merit
6+
They're eighteen years old. ...
So the decision making part of the brain has not fully matured yet ...
... They've been in school for upwards of thirteen years.
and we don't know how many of those years they decided to learn from.
As a 30+ year old person I went back to school to earn another degree in a program that included many post high-school people well over 18 years old, I know the difference between taking courses because you had to, or taking courses because you wanted to learn.
It was at an academy with lots of 18-20 year old kids (yes kids, as they had not fully matured) with some courses just for us, and some courses shared with the kids. They hated us -why? We ruined the curve for grades because we actually studied and learned; we knew the value of education and wanted to get as much of it as possible out of the courses, while the kids still wanted to party and play. We got all the A's.
So yes, you have no idea what the potential of a student is just from mandatory high school class performance, and you won't know until that student is committed to learning as something they want.
That is why CC and up should be voluntary education available any time of life.
I know from personal experience.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 36 (773839)
12-09-2015 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by RAZD
12-09-2015 5:46 PM


Re: Education on Merit
American potential - coddled away from cradle to grave.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 36 (773845)
12-09-2015 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by RAZD
12-06-2015 7:36 AM


Re: reality check
Look up the tax code rates under Eisenhower. The US economy was in top form with lots of innovation and production. This is a republican propaganda for cutting taxes for the rich.
Eisenhower's tax rates are where Sanders gets his ideas about his proposals, although he has not committed on firm numbers as of yet. He has, however, stated his admiration for taxing the wealth at 90% as if anyone would stand there and get ass raped at 90%.
I mean, honestly, how stupid does someone have to be to think this American would remain a U.S. citizen after being robbed by the government? They would simply leave to some tax haven country, thus taking money that could be going into the US economy away to some foreign country.
Look no further than the two models in America as evidence. Businesses are fleeing places like California and New York and setting up shop in much more business friendly climates like Texas and Georgia. No one is just going to sit there and be extorted. So who here honestly thinks ANYONE would willingly allow to be taxed that?
It used to be that education was for you to improve yourself and learn to take an intelligent approach to life, not as a route to a job. This concept has been lost in the hype to get jobs so you can work 8 or 9 hours a day doing tasks for someone else.
If that were true, then no one would be admitted into college, rather they would just sit in on classes to soak up the knowledge. But as we all know, people go to college because it's a stepping stone and essentially training for potential jobs. That may be far less honorable in your mind, but it's nevertheless the reality.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
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