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Author Topic:   Parables 101
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 76 of 229 (310081)
05-07-2006 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by ringo
05-07-2006 5:47 PM


Re: Our Topic Is: The Good Samaritan
The Samaritan came across a victim and helped him. If you're anything like me then you come across victims all the time - and you don't (like I don't) do what the Samaritan did.
Jesus said it was a law. Is there anything in the parable to indicate that not following the law would result in inheriting eternal life
Because I took it that obeying the law was the point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by ringo, posted 05-07-2006 5:47 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 05-07-2006 7:41 PM iano has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 77 of 229 (310091)
05-07-2006 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by iano
05-07-2006 7:02 PM


Re: Our Topic Is: The Good Samaritan
iano writes:
I took it that obeying the law was the point.
Loving thy neighbour was the point.
The Samaritan did do the right thing, so Jesus certainly was implying that it is possible to do the right thing.
Don't project your own shortcomings onto everybody else.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by iano, posted 05-07-2006 7:02 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by iano, posted 05-07-2006 8:21 PM ringo has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 78 of 229 (310105)
05-07-2006 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by ringo
05-07-2006 7:41 PM


Re: Our Topic Is: The Good Samaritan
The Samaritan did do the right thing, so Jesus certainly was implying that it is possible to do the right thing.
Jesus didn't say anything about possibility. He was explaining a point of law when asked to do so. What "love thy neighbour" entails in practice. Whether it is possible or not for anyone is for them to decide. It was possible for the samaritan in that instance.
Then he said go and do likewise. "This is the meaning of the law - now do it"
Don't project your own shortcomings onto everybody else.
I am asking you whether you "do likewise". When you have come across a victim have you stopped or passed by. Its a relatively simple question to answer
Have you broken this law in other words?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 05-07-2006 7:41 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 05-07-2006 8:29 PM iano has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 79 of 229 (310109)
05-07-2006 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by iano
05-07-2006 8:21 PM


Re: Our Topic Is: The Good Samaritan
iano writes:
Jesus didn't say anything about possibility.
Sure He did. How many other parables did He tell in which impossible actions occured? None? His parables were everyday events told in such a way as to parallel our relationship with God.
Whether it is possible or not for anyone is for them to decide.
Nonsense. It's for God to decide.
Then he said go and do likewise. "This is the meaning of the law - now do it"
Another indication that Jesus believed it was possible to obey the law. He didn't even say "Do your best." He flat-out said, "Do it." He knew it could be done. Why don't you believe Him?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by iano, posted 05-07-2006 8:21 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by iano, posted 05-07-2006 8:50 PM ringo has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 80 of 229 (310122)
05-07-2006 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by ringo
05-07-2006 8:29 PM


Re: Our Topic Is: The Good Samaritan
Our topic is as listed.
Jesus didn't talk about possibility. He gave an example of what the law entails. It was possible for the samaritan.
The question the lawyer asked was "what do I have to do" He was told what he had to do. He now knew what he had to do. As do you presumably.
Nonsense. It's for God to decide.
The instruction was for YOU to love your neighbour in this way. That what laws are for. You decide whether to obey or not
Another indication that Jesus believed it was possible to obey the law
Not contained in the text. A man was told what he must do if he wants to inherit the kingdom according to what the law says. The law doesn't state anything about the possibility of it being kept. It simply says it is to be kept
God issues commands. He can issue possible ones or impossible ones. He is under no obligation to make laws we can keep

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 05-07-2006 8:29 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 05-07-2006 9:01 PM iano has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 81 of 229 (310131)
05-07-2006 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by iano
05-07-2006 8:50 PM


Re: Our Topic Is: The Good Samaritan
iano writes:
A man was told what he must do if he wants to inherit the kingdom according to what the law says. The law doesn't state anything about the possibility of it being kept.
So now you're claiming that it's impossible to inherit the kingdom? Don't be ridiculous.
Jesus said what must be done. He was obviously talking about something that is possible.
God issues commands. He can issue possible ones or impossible ones. He is under no obligation to make laws we can keep
God is not an idiot.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by iano, posted 05-07-2006 8:50 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 05-08-2006 12:15 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 83 by iano, posted 05-08-2006 5:10 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 82 of 229 (310174)
05-08-2006 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by ringo
05-07-2006 9:01 PM


Re: Our Topic Is: The Good Samaritan
You guys argue about the most basic stuff!
Iano is right theoretically in that not everyone (or anyone, perhaps) always helps out every single needy person within radius of our perception. I think he is trying to hint at salvation by grace since the law can never be followed perfectly.
Yet "doing our best" is not an on again off again reaction. How many people do any of us know who would give you the shirt off their backs one day and not give you the time of day another day?
Behavior leads to more behavior of similar effect.
Whether by grace or by internal command, all of us have behaviors that can be improved.
Jesus never spoke of salvation by grace alone through faith alone because his audience was Jewish believers! In context, the expert in the law had to be shown that there was the possibility of doing what was in his power to do.

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 Message 85 by jaywill, posted 05-08-2006 6:32 AM Phat has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 83 of 229 (310200)
05-08-2006 5:10 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by ringo
05-07-2006 9:01 PM


Re: Our Topic Is: The Good Samaritan
A man was told what he must do if he wants to inherit the kingdom according to what the law says. The law doesn't state anything about the possibility of it being kept.
So now you're claiming that it's impossible to inherit the kingdom? Don't be ridiculous.
Your reading things into both what I say and what the parable says which just aren't being mentioned. We are looking at what we can conclude from the parable
What must 'I' do to inherit the kingdom? In answering what 'I' must do Jesus points to the law and clarifies, when asked, one aspect of the law. The nature of Law is that it is to be obeyed - not questioned as to whether is is possible, fair, a good idea or idiotic. Jesus underlining this says go do likewise. In this case: if you come across someone in need don't be a priest or a Levite - be a good samaritan.
There is nothing about doing it sometimes, nothing about trying, nothing about possibilty of doing it. If you'd like to wander into a personal philosphy about what is not written but what you yourself think is inherent in the text then fire away on your own. But lets not pretend the topic is the parable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 05-07-2006 9:01 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 05-08-2006 11:25 AM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 84 of 229 (310201)
05-08-2006 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Phat
05-08-2006 12:15 AM


Re: Our Topic Is: The Good Samaritan
The reason for arguing about basic stuff Phat is that it is not all that basic. You are doing precisely what Ringo is doing and adding personal philosophy onto a plain reading of the text.
If the parable is that which is being discussed that it is the parable. You cannot conclude all that you add here from it.
On the basis of it alone - what do you conclude?

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 Message 82 by Phat, posted 05-08-2006 12:15 AM Phat has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 85 of 229 (310210)
05-08-2006 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Phat
05-08-2006 12:15 AM


Re: Our Topic Is: The Good Samaritan
Phat,
I noticed your invitation to join the chat room a long time ago. Sorry if I didn't respond. I was late to see the message and technically lazy about learning how to do it.
But to your comment here:
Jesus never spoke of salvation by grace alone through faith alone because his audience was Jewish believers! In context, the expert in the law had to be shown that there was the possibility of doing what was in his power to do.
Were the twelve disciples of Jesus Jewish believers?
If so in the following passage did Jesus indicate the possibility of fulfilling a certain legal requirement was within thier power to do apart from God's grace?
"And Jesus, seeing that he became very sorrowful, said, How difficult it is for those who have riches to go into the kingdom of God. For it is easier for a camel to enter through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
And those who heard said, Then who can be saved?
But He said, The things that are impossilbe with men are possible with God" (Luke 18:24-27)
Was Jesus teaching here that by God's grace those for whom it is impossible to be saved may be saved?
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-08-2006 06:34 AM

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Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 86 of 229 (310212)
05-08-2006 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by jaywill
05-08-2006 6:32 AM


Re: Our Topic Is: The Good Samaritan
I was thinking that very thought as I ate breakfast in preparation for trying to get some camels through the eye of a needle. But I thought to myself "Can of worms"
But I suppose the "Go do likewise" has run its course

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 87 of 229 (310271)
05-08-2006 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by iano
05-08-2006 5:10 AM


Re: Our Topic Is: The Good Samaritan
iano writes:
The nature of Law is that it is to be obeyed - not questioned as to whether is is possible, fair, a good idea or idiotic.
Even human laws must be "obeyable", or they are worthless. Why do you have a lower opinion of God's laws?
A parable, by its very nature, describes events that supposedly did happen - therefore, the events could happen. Jesus specifically chose an unlikely event - helping one's worst enemy - to underline the fact that God's law is obeyable.
A parable, by its very nature, also parallels our lives and our relationships with God. By using a parable to make His point, Jesus was demonstrating that we can obey the law.
The plain text does plainly refer to the possibility of obeying the law and no amount of hand-waving on your part will make that go away.
The plain test does not refer to 100% compliance with the law and no amount of hand-waving on your part will add to the text what is not there.

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Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by iano, posted 05-08-2006 5:10 AM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 05-08-2006 1:39 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 88 of 229 (310314)
05-08-2006 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by ringo
05-08-2006 11:25 AM


Re: Our Topic Is: The Good Samaritan
Ringo, its interesting to read the various opinions on this parable. On the one hand, we have your basic belief that "doing our best" and observing the behaviors taught by Jesus is the summation of the Christian walk.
2) Many commentaries, such as this one indicate that the lesson is that perfect love cannot be done by humans. Perhaps a compromise to these two dichotomies is that it is the effort that counts. I don't think that the summation of the effort is in merely doing our best. I believe that acknowledgement of the authority of the teacher (Jesus) and the realization that we do not usually do likewise are indicative of our need for a savior.
I realize that behavior is more important than mere profession, but how many of us have the heart within us to be loving to our neighbors (everyone) as to ourselves? The entire capitalist system would collapse if we collectively did such a thing.
This message has been edited by Phat, 05-08-2006 11:44 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 05-08-2006 11:25 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 05-08-2006 2:06 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 89 of 229 (310325)
05-08-2006 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
05-08-2006 1:39 PM


The Man, the Mission and the Lesson
Phat writes:
I believe that acknowledgement of the authority of the teacher (Jesus) and the realization that we do not usually do likewise are indicative of our need for a savior.
I believe that "acknowledgement of the authority of the teacher" and "our need for a savior" are secondary to the message that Jesus brought.
He would not have had to use parables at all if His mission here was only to die.
Dying is easy. Accomplishing something during One's life is considerably harder. For our part, learning something from His teachings is considerably harder than professing a "belief" in Him.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 05-08-2006 1:39 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 05-10-2006 6:07 PM ringo has replied
 Message 92 by iano, posted 05-10-2006 6:59 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 05-16-2006 10:45 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 90 of 229 (310819)
05-10-2006 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by ringo
05-08-2006 2:06 PM


Re: The Man, the Mission and the Lesson
Bishop Spong, whom I respect but who is extremely controversial among the traditional christianity that I matured in, says
Spong writes:
The next issue we have to face is that of determining whether the supernatural understanding of God is essential to Christianity. I do not think it is.
Furthermore, I do not think that the mythological framework in which Jesus has been traditionally understood, as God's divine invasion of this world to rescue the fallen, is either original or accurate, to say nothing about its being an adequate way to understand the meaning of the Christ. Indeed, I think that understanding of Jesus is exactly backwards.
It was because Jesus was fully human that people experienced in him all that God means. It will take the Christian Church at least another century or two to overcome the way we have distorted God and to rid ourselves of the primitive images with which we have surrounded Jesus; but it will happen and, when it does, Christianity will experience a burst of new life.
I can appreciate the fully human,great example part of Jesus life that you use to encourage behavorism and action among all people.
What is harder for me to accept is what Spong says when he states:
Spong writes:
I see Christianity at its heart as deeply humanistic. The core doctrine of the Christian faith suggests that God is revealed through a human life.
Jesus states his purpose in John's gospel to be that of giving life abundantly. So I see secular humanism as the residual remains of Christianity once the supernatural elements have been removed.
I find it impossible to conceive of Christianity as mere philosophy devoid of supernatural elements. I suppose it is because I view God as my rescuer and reedemer and not a good teacher who expects me to do it all..(Indeed, I think it impossible)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 05-08-2006 2:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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