Did Jesus lie ?

As long as we argue with the dogmatist shouting, "I have 'the answer'!"

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And with that yet another Christian testifies that the Biblical Christians Goddlet is an arbitrary, cruel, picayune demon of no worth, respect or morality.How sad.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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In other words, you require an explanation from ”their’ understanding of Scripture and from ”their’ preconceived ideas on how these “Son of Man” teachings are to be interpreted.

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No, I'm explaining to you that I look at the plain text and if you wish to make your point and show me (or others) that your preconceived ideas are more correct than the plain reading of the text, then you need to show that the plain text supports your premise.

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Scripture is providing the spirit/water/blood ”pattern’ existing between all the principals of every three witness group testifying throughout His Word. You have a spirit, body (water) and soul (blood), just as a family has a father (spirit), mother (water) and seed (blood). A diagram showing some of these witnesses looks like this:

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But where does the Bible support that Elijah is designated as spirit and Moses as water, etc. I can't get into the rest of the table, since it will drag this off topic. Please just address Moses and Elijah.

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Neither does your stature in Christ today affect a single thing He has also given me to see.

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Just as your stature in Christ doesn't affect what I have been given to see, but if you are going to participate in a debate on this board, you need to address the arguments presented; otherwise you are just sermonizing and that doesn't help the debate progress.

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Again, my presentations are given for the ”unbiased’ third party readers seeking ”the truth’ on this topic and NOT for those with an agenda for something else.

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Then you are not here to debate which is the purpose of this board.

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We agree (Dawn and Terral = for Phat). If these things were ”clearly’ laid out in Scripture, we would not be having this conversation in the first place. Since Christ knew ”no sin’ (2Cor. 5:21), then He is obviously NOT LYING in Matthew 16:28.

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So we agree that the transfiguration is not supported by scripture as the event being referred to in Matthew 16:28. Interesting way to determine Jesus wasn't lying, which I already agreed that I don't think he was; but it doesn't mean that he was referring to the transfiguration.

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The remainder all died without seeing the vision (Matt. 17:9) of the Son of Man coming into His kingdom.

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The text doesn't say they would see a vision. It said they would see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.Since Jesus told all his disciples about the End of the Age (Matthew 24), I feel that the verse in question was referring to that event.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Hi PurpleDawn:

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Dawn >> [snip]But where does the Bible support that Elijah is designated as spirit and Moses as water, etc. I can't get into the rest of the table, since it will drag this off topic. Please just address Moses and Elijah.[big snip]

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Moses >> “And she named him Moses, and said, "Because I DREW him out of the WATER." Exodus 2:10.

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Moses was forced to see death BEFORE he entered into the Promised Land (Deut. 34:8), because he is typical of ”men.’ Those singing the ”song of Moses’ (Rev. 15:3) are those from the ”body of Moses’ (Jude 1:9) baptized into his body (1Cor. 10:1-4) and ”laid low.’

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Elijah >> "It is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the SPIRIT and power of Elijah . . .”. Luke 1:17.

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Elijah is the only Jew in the Old Testament NOT to see death, as he “went up by a whirlwind to heaven.” 2Kings 2:11. He is typical of the ”angels’ who never see death. While the ”body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) and the ”body of Moses’ (Jude 1:9) are taught in Scripture, we must come to see the ”body of Elijah’ through the related ”types.’ In reality Elijah is a type of ”Adam,’ and Moses is a type of ”Eve’ and the three witnesses at the Mount of Transfiguration are the ”three begottens’ of Adam (spirit), Christ (blood) and Eve (water). We can go into lengthy explanations, but then this becomes a sermon . . .

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Dawn >> The text doesn't say they would see a vision. It said they would see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

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Christ only disclosed that ”some’ of those hearing His words in Matt. 16:28 would ”see’ something. How that would be carried out is revealed in the following chapter.

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Dawn >> Since Jesus told all his disciples about the End of the Age (Matthew 24), I feel that the verse in question was referring to that event.

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Why borrow context from events in Matt. 24 to explain Matt. 17, when Scripture establishes that for you in Matt. 16:28? My explanation requires the readers to simply read the end of Matthew 16 and then the first eight verses of Matthew 17 for the answer.In Christ Jesus,Terral

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"For the word of God is Living AND Active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." Hebrews 4:12.

Jar:

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Jar >> And with that yet another Christian testifies that the Biblical Christians Goddlet is an arbitrary, cruel, picayune demon of no worth, respect or morality. How sad.

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I cannot help the fact that God uses the Greek term “musterion” in Scripture AND connects that to several subjects. We are not at liberty to pick and choose which terms are good and which terms are somehow bad to fit our own personal preferences. What does Scripture say?

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“But a natural man DOES NOT accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.” 1Corinthians 2:14.

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Do you imagine that believing the Gospel causes God’s deepest secrets to become suddenly known? Please . . . God gave the Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers (Eph. 4:11) to the church for a reason (Eph. 4:12+13). How does Paul describe some among the Corinthians?

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”And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men? 1Corinthians 3:1-3.

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Look above to see if your own words are spiritual or fleshy like Paul says? Maybe the topic of “Did Jesus lie” is just too deep for some of us to fathom. If I type using three and four letter words, that is condescending; but if giving a thorough explanation, that is a sermon. The whiners here appear to outnumber those truly seeking anything on any of these Bible topics. We shall see . . .In Christ Jesus,Terral

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"For the word of God is Living AND Active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." Hebrews 4:12.

Scripture says much and the Bible is only a small part of scripture, and is not the scripture refered to in the Bible, of course. I have not a clue, nor do I much wonder about GODs deepest secrets. Believing the Gospel though can help one live a better life.The Gospel is "Love GOD and love others as you love yourself."It really is that simple.No one is born damned. There is no Original Sin. There was no Fall. Jesus sacrifice was that He lived for us. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I was afraid that was the direction you were going with those. Unfortunately, being drawn out of the water doesn't make Moses part of the three that testify. (1 John 5)

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Elijah is the only Jew in the Old Testament NOT to see death, as he “went up by a whirlwind to heaven.” 2Kings 2:11. He is typical of the ”angels’ who never see death.

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Again that doesn't make him related to what is said in 1 John 5 or show that Matthew 16:28 refers to the transfiguration.

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Christ only disclosed that ”some’ of those hearing His words in Matt. 16:28 would ”see’ something. How that would be carried out is revealed in the following chapter.

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They saw Jesus change and they heard God's approval of Jesus.But in Matthew it says they would see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom. The narrative of the transfiguration doesn't describe that the kingdome had come.

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Why borrow context from events in Matt. 24 to explain Matt. 17, when Scripture establishes that for you in Matt. 16:28? My explanation requires the readers to simply read the end of Matthew 16 and then the first eight verses of Matthew 17 for the answer.

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You already agreed in Message 70 that the scriptures do not clearly point to the transfiguration as the event expected in Matthew 16:28.Stating that some people would not die before seeing the kingdom, implies a longer period of time than six days. Jesus talks of the coming of the kingdom in the latter part of Matthew.The transfiguration doesn't speak of the arrival of the kingdom.In Act 1:6, the disciples asked "Lord are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?If what you say is true, then Peter, John, and James would have already known. Since they (the three) were allowed to tell about what happened on the mountain after the resurrection, they (the three) wouldn't have had the question and Jesus still said it is not for them (disciples) to know the times or dates.The behavior of the disciples doesn't show that any of them had seen the kingdom any sooner or that the kingdom had come any sooner or that only three had seen anything pertaining to the kingdom any earlier than the rest of the disciples.The transfiguration still doesn't seem to be the event spoken of in Matthew 16:28.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

that's fine, because there aren't any people with that agenda on this thread (not sure about you, though). There are plenty of contradictions in Scripture, but only in the minds of those who ”interpret’ things correctly. No, I'm asking you why is Jesus saying what he's saying in light of your interpretation ?!

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“Six days later, Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John [ three witnesses ], and brought them up on a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them; and His garments became radiant and exceedingly white, as no launderer on earth can whiten them.” Mark 9:2+3.

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why?? what has this book's author's vision to do with what Jesus said and did during his ministry?? is it describing the transfiguration? is it relevant to Jesus's beliefs ? we're not discussing Revelation here, we're specifically dicussing Matthew and what Jesus, the actual person, said and believed. If you want to make arbitrary connections between third-party mystical apocalyptic texts and Jesus's gospel go ahead, but not on this thread. If, on the other hand, you find any accounts which tell us what Jesus said and did that support your view, feel free to bring them in. Revelations ain't one of them.this is particularly ironic since it's you who wrote about people :

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....inventing their own notions of ”context’ to draw their self fulfilling predetermined conclusions.

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so heed your own words and don't be one of those people ! But noone has seen the fulfillment of the prophecy, because the prophecy was that the kingdom of God would come within his generation, that's exactly the point. You're just extrapolating from other unrelated texts to convince yourself that Jesus was talking about the Transfiguration in Matt 16:28, so 'some' people saw the fulfillment . I'm simply asking : If Jesus knew that in six days he would have three of his disciples witness his Transfiguration then why is he implying that some of them might be dead by the time this event happened ? This is still unanswered.Now, you're purporting that the reference to the Son of Man coming into his kingdom in Matt 16:28 isn't an eschatological reference, but rather a self-fulfilling prophecy about his Transfiguration. Since you love talking about context have a look at the immediately preceding verse (Matt 16:27):

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For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. (Matt 16:27)

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This is obviously the same event he's talking about in the immediately next verse (Matt 16:28) that some will be alive to witness ( BTW, it's also a clear reference to the description of the kingdom and the method of Judgement in Matt 25).You're saying that this event is the Transfiguration, not the Coming of the Kingdom at the end times. Then, was every man rewarded according to his works during the Transfiguration ?Well..no they weren't! So this event that some of them sould still be alive to witness couldn't have been the Transfiguration!So, to recap, here are two simple points from the very same passage that we're debating (no need for clutching at straws, 1John, Revelation, etc) which show that Matthew 16:28 was an eschatological prophecy that never came to pass, as the coming of the kingdom never happened within the generation of his disciples, as Jesus predicted.The only question now is: did Jesus lie or did he make an honest mistake ?P.S if you bother replying, I'd appreciate it if you spared the mental acrobatics, preaching and mis-characterizations, thanks.P.S2 I just realised I accidentally replied to Riverrat; this post is actually intended for TerralEdited by Legend, : added PS2

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Small problem is the fact that 'Moses' is not a Hebrew name but part of a theophoric Egyptian name meaning 'son of' or 'born of'. For example, Ra-meses is 'born of Ra'. We do not know what Moses' full name was as the first part of his name is missing.We do know that his name isn't Hebrew.Brian.Edited by AdminPD, : WarningEdited by AdminPD, : Warning Removal

I laid it all out way back in Message 50
I guess you missed it?

I thought that was the two greatest commandments summed up, and the gospel of Jesus is to believe in Him so that you may go to heaven, that He died for us.Part of believing is following those two commandments, and being a disciple, or being in Christ. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

The interesting thing to me is that if Jesus did lie Matthew didn't exclude it from the gospel to save the Christian church from embarressment. There's no reason to believe that Matthew couldn't catch the mistake. The fact that Matthew included it in his gospel argues for the authenticity of it having actually been said by Jesus.False propoganda would exclude those things which disprove its main purpose of publication. The candidness of including potentially embaressing material argues for the authenticity of the sayings of Christ in Matthew's gospel.Do we see in the New Testament Peter, John, James, Paul downhearted and dejected that their Lord has not returned in their life times? I see no indication of depression or disillusionment. They all seem quite sober and resonsponsible to pass on to there audience the concepts they will need for the long haul just in case Jesus does not return right away.Peter speaks of his soon coming departure. So does Paul. There is no hint of dejected disappointment that Christ has not touched down on the earth again. They may have wanted Him to. Thier attitude that they don't KNOW when He will and that the disciples need to be equiped for a possible longer wait is soberminded and responsible.Now what did Jesus actually say? Did He say some were standing there who would not taste death until they see Him come again? No He did not. He said that some standing there would not taste death until they saw the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.What did they see? They saw something that was concealed and hidden within Jesus become manifested. The splendour of His hidden divine glory seeped out from the concealment of His flesh and He was transfigured before their eyes. The divine glory hidden within the shell of His humanity temporarily shone through and the disciples standing there got a glimps.He commanded them not to tell anyone about the vision until He be raised from the dead.This argues that the full manifestation of the kingdom involves His up coming crucifixion and resurrection from death. Jesus therefore could not have thought of any full consummation of His kingdom would NOT including His death and resurrection. Why then would He teach that within six to eight days His kingdom would be consummated on the earth? What they were given to witness was a preview.In the same gospel of Matthew when asked about the time of His second coming He indicates that the gospel of the kingdom first must be preached not only to the towns in Judea but "in the whole inhabited earth" (Matt.24:14) What indications do we have that He expected that to be done in six to eight days?The skeptics reads "the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" but inserts mentally "the second coming of Christ". So those standing by dying before "the second coming of Christ" proves to them that Jesus lied in Matthew 17.Part of this could be that the skeptics only consider what Jesus does outside of them and in the earth as "the kingdom of God". God has no kingdom in their lives. They do not own Christ as their king. The rather are in rebellion against any authority of God. Since there is no kingdom of God in them they assume that there is no kingdom of God anywhere.The kingdom obviously is called the kingdom not only at its consummation but along the way of its development."And He said, So is the kingdom of God: as if a man cast seed on the earth, And sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and lengthens - how; he does not know.

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The earth bears fruit by itself: first a blade, then an ear, then full grain in the ear. But when the fruit is ripe, immediatly he sneds forth the sickle, because the harvest has come." (Mark. 4:26-29)The sprout is the kingdom. The growth and lengthening is the kingdom. The maturing and ripening is also the kingdom. And the consummation and reaping is the kingdom.The kingdom of God is a matter of God planting His divine life in man. Then this life is to grow and mature until the harvest. Since Jesus besides being God was also a man like us He demonstrated this ripening of the kingdom life in man and allowed its splendour to come out temporarily. Some standing there saw the Son of Man coming in His kingdom through this temporary manifestation of the inward divine splendour.All the believers in Christ will experience the divine life growing in them. Those who are the most cooperative with be harvested at the end of the church age. Christ is in us as the hope of glory Paul writes. And He comes not only to be glorified above His saints but in His saints, as we read in Thessalonians.Brian may be eager to charge Christ with lying. But I think the problem is Brian's superficial understanding of the kingdom of the Son of Man.Paul on the other hand taught that the normal and healthy church life during these many intervening centries before the second coming of Christ, is the kingdom of God. I emphasize normal and healthy:"For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" (Rom. 14:17)The Apostle John as an aged man exiled to the island of Patmos says that he was at that time a worker in the kingdom of God. Neither one of these disciples postpone the kingdom life off until the second coming.So if Brian has not desire to live in the kingdom where there is reighteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, it doesn't mean that no disciples of Jesus today are experiencing that aspect of Christ's kingdom.Lastly, I hesitate to claim Jesus lied because it is obvious that a lie must be so only if it is intentional. He was God incarnate as a man and was at times under the limitation of His assumed humanity. We see times when He was surprised at something someone said. We see times when He did not know something of which He was informed. The Father had Him sometimes under the limitation of His humanity. He had to be like us.In this limitation He may have said something with limited knowledge. That would not be a lie because that would not be an intentional twisting of truth. That would be a speaking according to the knowledge of an incomplete nature as He stood on the ground of a man. This is a possible explanation not of His comment about the kingdom of the Son of Man but of the traveling through all the towns before He comes.Does this mean Jesus spoke error? Can we then assume many things He said were incorrect as He was under human limitation?The Old Testament says that God would not let any of the words of His prophet Samuel fall to the ground. God had a way to vindicate what Samuel said. It may appear that we have some mistake in what Jesus said in Matthew 17. But I say "appear".You all act according to what you think is the best reaction. For my part if God did not let Samuel's words fall to the ground I am sure He will uphold every word of the Son of God. Jesus said heaven and earth would pass away before His words would pass away. So I think His words are more secure than the physical universe itself. And I am staking my hopes on that.It boils down to eventually you have to, and you will put your trust in someone.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

this is a common argument in support of many biblical difficulties. "If this is wrong, why was it included?" What you fail to take into account, however, is that many of these prophecies weren't shown to be false until after that generation had expired.So someone who was, say, 20 yrs old when Jesus made the prophecy about this generation would still expect it to be fulfilled when he was 70, 50 years later.when Matthew was written (50-80AD) this generation was very much alive and waiting for the coming of the Kingdom, so the author of Matthew had no reason to consider this prophecy unfulfilled.We're looking towards the end of the first century -or even later- when people would finally realise that the coming of the Kingdom wasn't going to happen when Jesus predicted it.Ofcourse by that time the synoptic gospels were already in circulation and the church at that time would be faced with two choices:
(i) Redaction - two big obstacles to this: First, egg on the face of the fledgling church. Second, the technical difficulties of locating and changing all manuscripts in an age without extensive transportation facilities, radio or internet.(ii) Re-interpretation. - Changing church doctrine to extrapolate new meanings from current knowledge into established writings, i.e. interpreting certain passages as allegories or metaphors when suitable and interjecting new principles into old ones.The church obviously chose the second option, as it was by far the easiest and safest. As a result, we now have many Christians, even on this site, who convincigly assert that Jesus didn't really mean what he said and that the real essence of his ministry can only be revealed in the light of third party texts written by people who had never met Jesus and weren't even writing about his ministry while here on earth.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

In both Message 83 and Message 25 I'm explaining why Matt 16:28 is an eschatological verse.In Message 48 I'm also showing how Paul, a prominent early Christian,imminently expected Jesus to descend from heaven and pick them all up in the clouds.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

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I'm also showing how Paul, a prominent early Christian,imminently expected Jesus to descend from heaven and pick them all up in the clouds.
=================================What Paul SAID was those who are alive and left remaining would be thus treated.That proves that he expected:
1.) Some to no longer be alive.
2.) Quite possibly that some already preceeded these and were no longer "remaining".That Paul and John WANTED the Lord Jesus to come as soon as possible - I have no contrary argument.My argument is that the New Testmanet shows them quite responsible about the realization that He may NOT come before they expire (Christian "sleep").Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.