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Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 91 of 591 (781100)
03-31-2016 7:55 PM


So I guess I have to look in his link What is Christianity? Message 401 .
We'll see.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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 Message 92 by jar, posted 03-31-2016 8:05 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 92 of 591 (781101)
03-31-2016 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by jaywill
03-31-2016 7:55 PM


Learn how to read. There was a link as I told you in that message. Did you click on the link? Did you read the material supplied.
I'm really trying to keep this simple for you so I will post the link yet again.
Here once again is the sentence: I posted them here Phat, several times, and you even replied to the posts. A recent example is in What is Christianity? Message 401.
The links are the twp highlighted in clue, the first is to the thread and the second is to the specific post. Message 401 begins with the evolution of the Great Commission over time as it gets retold by unknown authors and then covers the various versions of Paul's fable. At first as in so many folk tales it is pretty simple and he just says that he saw Jesus as "one born out of time" and that the revelation was from God not Jesus.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by jaywill, posted 03-31-2016 7:55 PM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 03-31-2016 9:39 PM jar has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 93 of 591 (781105)
03-31-2016 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by jaywill
03-31-2016 7:46 PM


Re: Jar Unplugged and Leaking badly
quote:
The story of Paul's conversion also evolved over time and as different people retold the story. The first and earliest mention is found in 1 Corinthians 15:8. Here is that passage in context.
Paul in 1Cor 15:3-8 writes:
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
The formula " I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, ..." is believed by notable scholars to be the customary fashion in which a disciple indicated that he was faithful to the teaching he received.
There is NOTHING in this passage that contradicts Paul's Damascus experience. Acts tells us that he was baptized by Ananias and was among Christians, though they feared him. Eventually he was received with the encouragement of Barnabus.
Along WITH his personal dramatic experience Paul also surely was instructed by teachers as to fundamentals of the Christian gospel.
It is not unthinkable that someone having a dramatic conversion, and being very learned, would also, in humility hear teaching passed on to him from others.
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
These are mostly points of major doctrinal importance. Along with them is his confession that the resurrected Christ also appeared to Paul, after he had appeared to these other mentioned people.
That is completely consistent with the book of Acts.
No evolution of the story is indicated in this passage in First Corinthians [EDITED] at all.
The only notable matter is that in Galatians Paul indicates that God directly revealed much truth to him.
1.) Both his personal revelations from God and his recalled instruction from older disciples are entirely possible. Most Christians have similar experience though not always as dramatic.
2.) Personal revelation could ALSO be in instruction he received from others.
In prayer and fellowship and reading of the scripture with others God could impress upon Paul things in a very personal way.
quote:
It's a very simple mention that Paul saw Jesus but void of any of the details found in latter stories.
  —jar
This is a lame observation, as if everything written by a man about a life changing experience has to be verbatim repetition of all details. What rule demands that every mention of a Christian's backround must be verbatim repetition of all details.
I can give my personal testimony emphasizing certain matters at one time with one audience. I can give my personal testimony emphasizing other matters to another audience at another time.
quote:
The next recounting is from somewhat later and again it is pretty simple and in fact says it was a revelation from God (not Jesus) and that he was not speaking with flesh and blood.
  —jar
The history I will ignore for the moment. What is important is if jar can locate serious discrepancies with the different accounts.
Paul in Galatians 1:11-16 writes:
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
That the Gospel was not according to man is TRUE whether or not Paul met Christ on the road to Damascus. That the Gospel is sourced in God makes it NOT [edited] according to man though it is announced by man.
Paul is saying the Gospel is not the product of human invention regardless of HOW he learned it.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
That is consistent with Acts. And it is not negated by the fact that the brothers in the church informed Paul of major aspects of the Gospel. Even if he did hear them, he was persuaded that they did not invent these things. Therefore, either way, the Gospel is God's revelation rather than a product of human imagination.
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
That is certainly consistent with the book of Acts.
Nothing "evolved" and changed here.
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
That merely means that God's hand was on his life way before he was an adult. From birth God had a plan for him. At the appointed time God revealed His Son IN Paul - ie. Christ entered into Paul to be his indwelling Lord and Savior.
Not only so, Paul LIVED by this indwelling and growing Christ so that Christ was revealed more and more IN Paul.
There is no morphing of his testimonial here. There is only realization that all his life God had His eyes on this chosen vessel.
quote:
As an aside, Galatians is one of those very important interoffice memos (and just as today, we don't have access to the original but only copies from about a half century later) where Paul begins outlining his new definition of Pauline Christianity.
Still later, the author of Acts, attributed to Luke, recounts yet another version but now there are far more details and far more stagecraft.
  —jar
There is no "another version" in any major detail. One can recount one's dramatic personal experience and at different times highlight different aspects of it.
The testimonial is essentially the same. Jar proves no evolution of the telling.
Luke in Acts 9:3—9 writes:
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
What difference is there of really significant nature ?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
So he mentions something additional said by Christ which in another recounting he omitted or Luke omitted. You don't know which one, Paul or Luke, is responsible for the variation.
What MAJOR difference does it present? None.
Does it agree with Galatians that Paul was in God's view all along, even from his mother's womb? Yes, it says Paul was like a stubborn horse in God's wagon, kicking against his destiny.
The second account is really a confirmation rather than a contradiction. It certainly presents no serious descrepency such that we should be alarmed. No significant "evolving" of Paul's testimony is proved in this version.
Details not mentioned previously are now mentioned. For all we know Jesus may have said even more to Paul on that occasion which did not come down to us in the New Testament.
We are told what is most essential. What contradiction of significance can jar point out here?
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
No essential significant difference is in this version.
The wording is different.
It is entirely possible that the conversation between Paul and the exalted Jesus was more extended then ONE version reveals. It is possible that by putting two records of Paul's testimonial together, the exchange was more involved then the first testimony shows.
This is jar's straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel.
I stop here for space and time.
.
Edited by jaywill, : editing on style
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : Editing of style.
Dependency should be Descrepency
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : typo changed from Galatians to First Corinthians.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by jaywill, posted 03-31-2016 7:46 PM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 03-31-2016 9:18 PM jaywill has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 94 of 591 (781106)
03-31-2016 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by jaywill
03-31-2016 8:58 PM


Re: Jar Unplugged and Leaking badly
One thing that I noticed upon googling the term, personal revelation is that almost all of the sites mentioned were from The Church Of latter Day Saints...the mormons!
This led me back to my Bible where I studied some more and was reminded(personally, maybe? ) of a scripture 2 Peter:1:19-21
which basically says that
quote:
So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
This scripture to me would seemingly challenge the idea of personal revelation. What do you think, jaywill?
Edited by Phat, : fixed messup

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by jaywill, posted 03-31-2016 8:58 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by jaywill, posted 04-01-2016 7:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 95 of 591 (781108)
03-31-2016 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
03-31-2016 8:05 PM


Progressive Marketing
The question in my mind is basically the motivation of the groups involved.
jar writes:
So was the evolution of the post resurrection story and the Great Commission driven by marketing pressure?
I would tend to believe that progressive revelation played a part in all of that. I dont believe that anything in this world happens quite by accident. I also believe that GOD has a part in the learning and teaching of humanity. He likely knew that we would be arguing over this stuff this very day. He also knows that we are personally responsible for how we respond and what we DO in our lives for others and to others.
I believe that Paul came along in History after Jesus for a reason. I don't believe that Jesus would have laughed at all that Paul did. I believe that Paul was human as are we all, however, and that his flesh and Spirit opposed each other, but I believe that the Spirit won.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 03-31-2016 8:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 03-31-2016 10:58 PM Phat has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 96 of 591 (781114)
03-31-2016 10:10 PM


Luke in Acts 9:13—19 writes:
13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
So what ?
What has your Oh So Superior reading ability have to point out as a major evolution in Paul's conversion story?
What details here do you have a problem with as hugely significant indication of the morphing of Paul's testimonial ?
17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
So what ?
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
So he was baptized and was with some disciples at Damascus.
I suppose one may notice that in Galatians Paul said immediately he did not confer with flesh and blood.
I do not see a major problem. When Peter recognized Jesus as the Christ the Son of God, Jesus said flesh and blood had not revealed this to him but God the Father (Matthew 16:13-20).
" And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said to him, Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in the heavens." (Matt. 16:16,17)
Yes, Paul said in Galatians -
" But when it pleased God ... to reveal His Son in me that I might announce Him as the gospel ... immediately I did not confer with flesh and blood, ..." (See Gal. 1:15,16)
This does not have to mean that he was not with the disciples in Damascus.
Neither does it have to mean that they were not teaching him things or at least saying things in his presence that he heard.
I take it to mean that he needed no one to confirm what he knew, and knew what he knew he knew. Deep within God the Father had revealed to him that Jesus was the Son of the living God just as the Father had revealed to Peter.
Flesh and blood teaching of a natural sort could not do what divine revelation from God could do. Perhaps he knew BETTER and DEEPER than any of the believers in Damascus concerning the nature of Christ.
They may have been eager to teach him things. But deep in his being what God had burned into his being made their words a little anti-climactic.
He did not have to confer with flesh and blood. I do not take Galatians 1:16 to contradict necessarily -
19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
In the same Galatian letter he admits that he did talk with the "pillars " of the church in Jerusalem - Cephas and James. But he waters down the Galatians expectation of their seniority in terms of revelation. Paul says they added nothing to him.
What they knew he also knew and quite deeply and more.
In Acts 22 the story is recounted another time but again the details are elaborate and the details contradict the earlier version.
Paul said to be speaking in Acts 22 writes:
22 Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.
2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)
3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
Where any contradiction in this?
4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.
Where the contradiction here ?
5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.
Where's the contradiction here?
6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Where any significant major contradiction here?
8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
Where's any major contradiction here?
What rule dictates that when a man gives a personal testimony of a dramatic event in his life, each and every detail has to be told ?
In one instance he may exclude something.
In another instance he may include that part and exclude something formerly said.
My conversion to Jesus was dramatic. I have told it many times. I probably included or excluded certain details which all happened, as I care to tailor my testimony.
This is not falsehood. This is not necessarily repeating ALL the details in exactly the same way because of withholding or including aspects of the experience as I see fit.
Then if someone else is writing about my speaking, for his own purposes he may do the same.
You have nothing here jar.
11 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
There is nothing here that dictates because details of what Ananias said, proof of evolution indicates fabrication.
I vaguely remember someone pointing out the light and the voice particulars cause some readers puzzlement. It has never been a major problem to me.
Rather than differences like this being a test to Paul's testimony I think they are rather a test to the rest of us. Will we miss the point ? We are often experts at missing the point when it comes to God's revelation.
If you have something else which you think proves a fictional account evolved over time about something that never happened, what is it?

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 97 of 591 (781117)
03-31-2016 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
03-31-2016 9:39 PM


Re: Progressive Marketing
Phat writes:
The question in my mind is basically the motivation of the groups involved.
Okay, you can have that question. But I cannot see anyway to find that out or how it changes in anyway what they did.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 03-31-2016 9:39 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 04-01-2016 6:05 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 98 of 591 (781134)
04-01-2016 6:05 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by jar
03-31-2016 10:58 PM


Re: Progressive Marketing
Phat writes:
The question in my mind is basically the motivation of the groups involved.
jar writes:
Okay, you can have that question. But I cannot see anyway to find that out or how it changes in anyway what they did.
If Christianity is all about what we do then I am at peace with my marketing strategy. Why should we think any differently about the motivations of the groups involved in changing the message over time? They may promise more benefits, but as long as they are doing the work necessary and achieving results, who are we to judge whether or not they are lying?
I would argue that because of their Source, the content of their message is also truthful. You might argue that there was no reason for the message to be changed.
Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky...although from an inspired source!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 03-31-2016 10:58 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by jar, posted 04-01-2016 9:09 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 99 of 591 (781141)
04-01-2016 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
03-31-2016 9:18 PM


Re: Jar Unplugged and Leaking badly
quote:
One thing that I noticed upon googling the term, personal revelation is that almost all of the sites mentioned were from The Church Of latter Day Saints...the mormons!
This led me back to my Bible where I studied some more and was reminded(personally, maybe? ) of a scripture 2 Peter:1:19-21
which basically says that

So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
quote:
This scripture to me would seemingly challenge the idea of personal revelation. What do you think, jaywill?
I think you have to consider the phrase "of private interpretation" not to mean no one has a revelation.
In the church meetings the Apostle Paul even said the functioning members may have a revelation.
"What then, brothers? Whenever you come together each one has a psalm, has a teaching, HAS A REVELATION, has a tongue, has an interpretation.
Let all things be done for the building up." ( 1 Cor. 14:26)
Of course Paul also said that the other should discern.
He said all things should be for the building up.
And He said love is the greatest gift.
So I think it would be a reactionary over cautious attitude to think the New Testament says no Christian can have a private revelation. In fact Peter's words about the morning star arising in our hearts, indicates, if not revelation, illumination of spiritual light.
The intimate personal revealing we derive from prayerful study of the word of God should not contradict the whole tenor of the Bible. That would be an indication that we may be being deceived. God will not tell us something in private to contradict what He has spoken in the Scripture.
So I would take "private interpretation" in the sense of asking "Is this interpretation so personalized that it blatantly contradicts the whole Scripture?"
We are not called by God to write the Bible. We are not called to add revelation to the Bible that God has not revealed to His apostles and prophets. We do receive enlightenment on passages which shine on our personal lives or our church lives.
The footnote on First Peter 1:20 in the Recovery Version may help.
(v.20) " [interpretation] Lit, loosening, untying; hence disclosure, explanation, exposition. One's own interpretation means the prophet's or writer's own explanation or exposition, which would not be inspired by God through the Holy Spirit. The thought here is that no prophecy of Scripture is of the prophet's or writer's own concept, idea, or understanding; no prophecy comes from that source, the source of man; no prophecy originates from any prophet's or writer's private and personal thought. This is confirmed and explained by succeeding the verse.
... (v.21) For introduces an explanation of the preceeding verse. No prophecy of Scripture is of the prophet's or writer's expositiion, for no prophecy was ever borne, or carried along, by the will of man. Rather, men spoke from God while being borne by the Holy Spirit.
The word "borne" is the same in Greek as the word appearing in verses 17 and 18. No prophecy of Scripture was borne by the will of man. The will, desire, and wish of man with man's thought and exposition, were not the source from which any prophecy of Scripture came. The source was God. God's Holy Spirit was what bore men to write like the wind in the sails of a ship.
The writers therefore spoke from God and from God's will and desire.
What we speak today to illumine the word of God should build up the believers and be based upon what God has prophetically spoken in the 66 books of the Bible. When I introduce something of my own opinion, which I am not sure is confirmed by the Bible, I usually indicate such.
And I don't think anyone today is adding new chapters to the Bible as new revelation. Some may be helping us to be enlightened to what is THERE in the Bible which we have difficulty seeing sometimes.
I hope this helps.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 03-31-2016 9:18 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 04-01-2016 8:13 AM jaywill has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 100 of 591 (781142)
04-01-2016 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by jaywill
04-01-2016 7:56 AM


Re: Jar Unplugged and Leaking badly
In the church meetings the Apostle Paul even said the functioning members may have a revelation.
Hi Jaywill. First I want to say how much I generally appreciate your posts. When you are on a thread I figure I can sit back and let you say it all because it's usually the truth better than I would be able to say it.
This statement above caught my attention, though, and I want to ask if you consider yourself a charismatic, believing that the spiritual gifts are for today?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by jaywill, posted 04-01-2016 7:56 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by jaywill, posted 04-01-2016 9:32 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 101 of 591 (781143)
04-01-2016 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Phat
04-01-2016 6:05 AM


Re: Progressive Marketing
Phat writes:
I would argue that because of their Source, the content of their message is also truthful. You might argue that there was no reason for the message to be changed.
But so far there is no evidence available to determine the source or that things from some specific source should be truthful.
There were many reasons for messages to get changed. Paul for example was an apocalyptic the end is nigh marketer. He believed the report that Jesus said the end would come within the lifetime of those then living. But it didn't come. And so logic, reason and reality forced the message to change and the concept of what a Messiah was to be revised.
The question is "What is the work necessary?"

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 04-01-2016 6:05 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 102 of 591 (781145)
04-01-2016 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Faith
04-01-2016 8:13 AM


Responding to Faith's question
quote:
Hi Jaywill. First I want to say how much I generally appreciate your posts. When you are on a thread I figure I can sit back and let you say it all because it's usually the truth better than I would be able to say it.
This statement above caught my attention, though, and I want to ask if you consider yourself a charismatic, believing that the spiritual gifts are for today?
I do not believe such gifts have been done away.
I do not believe we should ever consider that the gifts named are the only ones.
We should consider them only as representative.
I think there has been over emphasis on unusual manifestations such as tongues or the miraculous.
Paul clearly said the more valuable gift for building up the church was to prophesy. And that does not mean supernatural prediction, at least only. It far more means to speak encouraging words from God or actually speaking forth God from your spirit to people and into people.
He wanted all the saints to prophesy - speak forth God and speak out God and speak God into other people. Everyone should learn to do this.
It is very important in the gatherings of a normal local church and/or small group gatherings (ie so called "cell groups") , that all the members be able to function and speak for mutual encouragement. Therefore the model of a one man speaker, meeting after meeting, is not healthy.
This kind of practice which is prevalent in the denominations stifles the function of the members of the Body.
If after even a short time of being saved, a Christian feels he or she cannot pray, or speak a word of encouragement or praise, this is not good. If they are indoctrinated to think that only a perfessional Pastor can pray, or speak, or praise, or give a little teaching for edification, this is playing into the hands of the enemy.
" Each one has ... " - is the God ordained manner in which Christians should meet.
At particular times, a single speaker may indeed be needed. Do not think that there are not times to give the floor for an extended period of time to one experienced Christian speaker. But to do so week after week, every single week, and every single Christian meeting does not build up the Body very well.
This keeps members passive and expecting that they are not required to experience Jesus Christ in order to share the top portion of their enjoyment with the congregation.
I do not meet with a Charismatic group per se. I have met with charismatic groups years ago, and enjoyed it.
This requires a lot of fellowship. One post does not adequately speak to the matter. Would you like me to perhaps start a thread on the profitable Christian meeting ?
Where I meet ALL participants are encouraged to be able to function in mutuality building up one another. We have to learn to be balanced by others, not either under function or over function. We have to learn to be attuned to the Body and tempered together with others.
We have to learn that even for a new Christian in the meeting to utter a word of thanksgiving or praise is extremely healthy to the congregation.
We also have to learn to gather with other Christians without being domineering and dominate all the functioning. To over function disallowing others to enter, is wrong. Also to under function, deeming that we are not qualified to say or do anything is also wrong.
I can share more in a thread dedicated to Christian meetings.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 04-01-2016 8:13 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Faith, posted 04-01-2016 10:13 AM jaywill has not replied
 Message 104 by Phat, posted 04-01-2016 11:52 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 103 of 591 (781148)
04-01-2016 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by jaywill
04-01-2016 9:32 AM


Re: Responding to Faith's question
Thanks for your reply.
How to encourage more participation in a church is a topic I'd be interested in hearing more about since I think there is generally a problem there in most churches. I'd say what has happened is that those who possess the particular gifts of preaching and teaching have come to dominate while other gifts aren't given much of an opportunity to develop -- except the gifts of helps and administrations and that sort of thing of course. I'm not sure I agree with you that all should be encouraged to speak, however, since there are definitely people who have speaking gifts whereas others don't. Also I believe Paul's letters to Timothy do encourage a singular role for pastor-teacher. But the idea that there is a variety of gifts that need more encouragement makes sense. If you'd like to start a thread I'd like to hear what you have to say.
But as far as the supernatural or miraculous spiritual gifts go I was finally convinced by the "Strange Fire Conference" put on by John MacArthur's church a couple years ago that the supernatural gifts did truly stop at the end of the apostolic age. I'd never been convinced one way or the other before though I'd struggled with the question for many years, because of my own experiences in a charismatic church where I was more put off by the manifestations of the so-called "gifts" than edified by them.
The Conference speakers finally put my doubts to rest, proving from scripture that the gifts had in fact ceased, as well as from the fact that the "gifts" as practiced by the charismatics today simply are not at all what the New Testament describes as the gifts, not the "tongues" or the "healings" or the "prophecy." The key words are "supernatural" and "gifts" -- abilities given to particular individuals that remain their possession. THAT is what has stopped, not God's power to do any of these things through anyone if He so chooses. They just aren't gifts to persons the way they were in the foundational Church. And this also doesn't mean that God no longer gives gifts to individuals either, just not the supernatural gifts, which were needed to launch the Church but not needed as part of our ongoing Christian life. So for instance we still have the gifts of preaching and teaching and evangelism and prophecy in the sense of explicating the Bible as you say. And again, God can still do supernatural works if He pleases, but as gifts those powers have dropped out.
But maybe we should have another thread for sorting out these things.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by jaywill, posted 04-01-2016 9:32 AM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 04-01-2016 12:04 PM Faith has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 104 of 591 (781153)
04-01-2016 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by jaywill
04-01-2016 9:32 AM


What is the work necessary?
jar writes:
The question is "What is the work necessary?"
and I agree that we are to try and do for the least of these...not only those in our church, for example...but for the Muslim family down the street or the atheist guy who needs a job, or the hungry Buddhist (unless they are fasting ) so I agree ....
jaywill writes:
Paul clearly said the more valuable gift for building up the church was to prophesy. And that does not mean supernatural prediction, at least only. It far more means to speak encouraging words from God or actually speaking forth God from your spirit to people and into people.
He wanted all the saints to prophesy - speak forth God and speak out God and speak God into other people. Everyone should learn to do this.
And I also believe this. It does little good to feed a guy if that's all you do for him. Ringos infamous spare change routine comes to mind. What eternal good does it do simply to hand a guy a buck every time you see him?
Of course one could argue that the man may see Christ in you-in your generosity and no-strings-attached approach to his problems. After all, I once knew of a church who refused to feed anybody until they also sat through a sermon...and I am not a fan of forced conversion, as some may be.
I agree with jaywill that all saints prophesy. One may ask what is a saint. I once had a Pastor who jokingly called some of us Sunday saints and Monday ain'ts...

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by jaywill, posted 04-01-2016 9:32 AM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by ringo, posted 04-01-2016 12:02 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 105 of 591 (781154)
04-01-2016 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Phat
04-01-2016 11:52 AM


Re: What is the work necessary?
Phat writes:
Ringos infamous spare change routine comes to mind. What eternal good does it do simply to hand a guy a buck every time you see him?
None. Eternity is over-rated.
Phat writes:
It does little good to feed a guy if that's all you do for him.
I've had pastors who said that it does no good to feed the body unless you feed the soul too. The problem with that philosophy is that when the body is hungry, the soul most likely isn't listening.
Of course the other side to it is that feeding his body is good for your soul.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Phat, posted 04-01-2016 11:52 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 04-02-2016 6:30 AM ringo has replied

  
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