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Author Topic:   Jesus The false prophet
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 4422 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 166 of 213 (629799)
08-20-2011 4:20 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by New Cat's Eye
06-09-2011 11:09 AM


post wiped.
the question was answered by another poster so mine was not required.
I only spotted it after rereading the thread.
Edited by Butterflytyrant, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-09-2011 11:09 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4517 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 167 of 213 (629816)
08-20-2011 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Buzsaw
08-19-2011 9:30 PM


Re: Two Of Jesus's Fulfilled/Fulfilling Prophecies In The Olivet Discourse
Hey Buzz,
Im not sure if you're responding to me or not. I'm going to assume you were. If not, I apologize.
You still have not addressed the Transfiguration issue. In fact, you have ignored my question quite a few times now.
It cannot be the Transfiguration for the issues I outlined. Your belief that its the Transfiguration is an excuse for the utter failure of the prophecy.
Now you are bouncing around trying to find some examples of fulfilled prophecy to perhaps show if one prophecy came to pass, then all must.
Buzz writes:
Another example of fulfillment of Jesus's Olivet Discourse prophecy is that in that discourse he prophesied that his gospel, which was, at that time, a brand new gospel, considered by many to be another little cult, would be proclaimed to all nations, at which period the end of the age would come.
This is a classic example of an of such an obsure prediction that its useless.
Show me in the gospels that the authors believed the world was the world we live in today, size wise. Afterall, Jesus was taken to the highest mountain to be shown ALL the kingdoms of the world. Obviously it was believed the world was very small back then (let alone round). In other words, the author was refering to that area, not the entire planet.
Where is the time frame? How do you know the author didnt believe all the nations of the world would hear of Jesus in ten years? 50 years? 500 years? Its a meaningless prophecy.
To be more clear, if the author thought Jesus was going to return in (lets just say 50 years) and believed that all the nations would hear his message first, then it changes everything.
Without a specific time frame, its just another long list of useless prophecies Christians throw out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Buzsaw, posted 08-19-2011 9:30 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Buzsaw, posted 08-20-2011 2:28 PM hERICtic has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 168 of 213 (629837)
08-20-2011 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by IamJoseph
08-20-2011 3:34 AM


IamJoseph writes:
A most perverse and obscene premise. Violent revolution? Judea was attacked and made to pay tribute and taxes - which she did for 150 years. Then depraved Nero introduced the heresy decree to worship his image in the temple - which the Jews rejected.
There is no doubt that the Jewish people were being abused horribly. The temples were being defiled, the taxes were onerous and they were in exile in their own lands.
This is from a Jewish site.
The Great Revolt
The fact still remains that the militant route made things far worse for them. I don't pretend to have easy answers to all of this. I do know that Jesus was a Jew talking to other Jews. Even in straight forward political terms He was saying that in the event of a rebellion the Romans will do what they always do - and they did.
IamJoseph writes:
The temple fell with the Jews were tested of their belief with a war with Rome in the defense of belief - nothing to do with Jesus. Fact is, if the Jews never rejected Rome, all Christans would be worshipping Jupiter and Mars today. Do you even know why this greatest of all defenses of belief is not recorded in the Gospels - when it occured in their faces? The prophesy of the temple falling was made by King Solomon, not anyone else, thus was the arc hidden by him.
As I said, Jesus was a Jew talking to His fellow Jews. The Gospels have Jesus referring to the Scriptures with nearly everything He told them. I'm not even saying that He looked into the future and told of the destruction of the Temple. He went to the scriptures, but in addition it would have been pretty obvious that the Romans were more powerful and that they would crush a Jewish uprising and destroy their places of worship.
IamJoseph writes:
You did not mention it. A million gave their lives and nation, throwing themselves on Roman swords - this has never been equalled in history. This was a greater holocaust than with the Nazis - while the Jews had no choice to save themselves during W.W.II, the Jews of Judea had - but they rejected it without their right to belief. Ths marks humanity's greatest sacrifice.
A huge sacrifice indeed, but what did it accomplish? What were the results? Like all empires the Roman empire faded. What would have been the future if they had bravely tolerated the Romans until the Romans were a spent force. Sure it would have taken at least a couple of centuries but maybe they could have held on to the land and maintained their culture and faith.
IamJoseph writes:
So you would have stood with the Jews against Rome - not what the Gospel adherants advised as a crime by the Jews? This was the choice facing Jews - the notion of rebeliousness is perverse here.
I'm human and to stand against Rome would have been a very human thing to do. I have a huge sympathy for the situation the Jews were in. By the way, it wasn’t just the adherents of Jesus that opposed the rebellion, and the fact is that at the same time a civil war erupted.
IamJoseph writes:
There are no laws in the Gospels: name one? Christianity could not exist without Moses nor without the Jews challenging Rome.
Love God and love your neighbour. This is a summation of all the laws and off course Jesus took this from the Hebrew scriptures.
IamJoseph writes:
Both the Gospels and Quran have racist doctrines hinged on names instead of laws. One says no salvation but through me; the other says all who don't follow Mohammed are non-believers and a blessing to kill. In contrast, the Hebrew bible says this:
First off when Jesus says there is only salvation through me, IMHO, that does not mean that only Christians have salvation. As I said earlier read the last part of Matthew 25. Read the story of the "Good Samara tin". It isn't about theology it is about love. Christians certainly don't have a lock on that.
As far as the Qu'ran is concerned it can be used to support peace or violence. Unfortunately all people seem to be tribal. Hopefully one day we'll all be one big tribe but that isn't going to happen in our lifetimes.
IamJoseph writes:
Thy Will refers to Godly laws which tumbled down from Sinai, the greatest event in the universe. Of note is how Moses' name is not attached to a single law - they stand pristine by themselves, accepted as the law by all worldly institutions.
Other than I would argue that the resurrection was the greatest event in history I agree.
IamJoseph writes:
There is nothing merciful about calling those who observed God's laws for 2000 years before Christianity emerged, as born of the devil. A mysterious force brought this same example back to Europe: Islam told you what you told the Jews.
I don't know where that born of the devil quotes came from but I have never heard that in any Christian circles I've been in from fundamental to liberal. The Jew's were chosen by God to be a light to the world. Over history the Jews have likely been the most persecuted of all peoples and often that has happened at the hands of so-called Christians. As I say, people are tribal and any faith can be twisted into justifying some horrendous things. I'm not sure what you are suggesting that I told the Jews, but I do know that as a Christian my Jewish roots are a big part of my faith. I worship the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. I worship a man who was a Jew through whom God returned to His people for the world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by IamJoseph, posted 08-20-2011 3:34 AM IamJoseph has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 169 of 213 (629849)
08-20-2011 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by hERICtic
08-20-2011 7:22 AM


Re: Context, Context, Context
heretic writes:
To be more clear, if the author thought Jesus was going to return in (lets just say 50 years) and believed that all the nations would hear his message first, then it changes everything.
This shows how utterly ignorant you are regarding the context of Matthew's other writings regarding the timing of Jesus's 2nd advent.
It was the same author, Matthew who wrote one of the accounts of the Olivet Discourse regarding the timing of Jesus's return. The Jews, then occupying Israel must be dispersed and Gentiles occupying Jerusalem until the end times when the Gentile occupation would end and Jews back for the messianic kingdom.
There were to be wars and rumors of wars BEFORE the end times. The great tribulation of saints was to happen, earthquakes in many various places, signs in the heavens, sun & moon darkening, a period of cloudiness, Jerusalem encompassed by armies etc, etc. To think this all could happen in 50 years is just nuts.
No, Matthew knew full well that this transfiguration could not have been the 2nd advent return.
Matthew and others recorded that the 2nd advent return Jesus would appear in great glory. The Transfiguration was a scene, depicting Jesus in great glory. Go figure. You need to study up before coming to an objective conclusion regarding this.
It appears that you are not debating in good faith. Believe what you will believe. You will likely never admit to one fulfilled prophecy, regardless of how much evidence is presented. Arguing with you further on this becomes an endeavor of futility, Heretic. You're running out of gas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by hERICtic, posted 08-20-2011 7:22 AM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by hERICtic, posted 08-20-2011 2:52 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4517 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 170 of 213 (629854)
08-20-2011 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Buzsaw
08-20-2011 2:28 PM


Re: Context, Context, Context
Hi Buzz.
I noticed you never seem to address the issues presented or questions asked.
I asked a few times how it could be the transfiguration when Jesus angels were not present, some disciples did not die nor was mankind rewarded. You have yet to answer.
I pointed out how the gospels being preached to every nation could not be fulfiled prophecy when the earth was thought of as much smaller back then. You didnt address this.
Buzz writes:
There were to be wars and rumors of wars BEFORE the end times. The great tribulation of saints was to happen, earthquakes in many various places, signs in the heavens, sun & moon darkening, a period of cloudiness, Jerusalem encompassed by armies etc, etc. To think this all could happen in 50 years is just nuts.
I know its before. I never said otherwise.
I never claimed it was to occur in 50 years. Sorry if I confused you. I just threw out dates to make a point. The point I was making is this:
Only recently could you claim that "all" nations have been given the message.
The Bible states his return would occur after this occurence.
Therefore, you are claiming that the return of Jesus could not be 2000 years ago bc all nations were not preached to.
My point is that your claim is baseless. The author never gave a time frame. He very well may have believed it was to occur 100 years from then (I'll use that number instead of 50 to avoid confusion) that all nations were to be given the message.
In other words, without a specific time frame, its so open ended, we cannot tell when he was refering to.
Also, the "world" back then was vastly "smaller". "All nations" could and most likely refered to only those nations in that part of the world.
Buzz writes:
Matthew and others recorded that the 2nd advent return Jesus would appear in great glory. The Transfiguration was a scene, depicting Jesus in great glory. Go figure. You need to study up before coming to an objective conclusion regarding this.
You accused Franko of ignoring the context yet its you who is doing so.
Jesus also stated he would come in great glory when he returns! So how do we know which one he is refering to? By reading in context.
Jesus did NOT only state he would come in great glory in regards to Matthew 16. He said he would arrive in great glory, with angels, with some disciples dead and mankind rewarded for their deeds.
Did all that happen during the transfiguration? Yes or no?
I even gave you scripture of what is to occur when the angels appear from Matthew 13 and 25. Did those occur during the transfiguration? Yes or no?
Buzz writes:
It appears that you are not debating in good faith. Believe what you will believe. You will likely never admit to one fulfilled prophecy, regardless of how much evidence is presented. Arguing with you further on this becomes an endeavor of futility, Heretic. You're running out of gas.
I have addressed every issue you presented while you have ignored most of mine. I asked simple questions, you ignore them.
You have not presented any evidence yet. You keep harping that it refers to the transfiguration, yet have provided zero evidence to support your case. I have done otherwise.
Please address my questions.
Did those events occur during the transfiguration?
Thanks.
Edited by hERICtic, : Added some information

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Buzsaw, posted 08-20-2011 2:28 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 171 of 213 (629865)
08-20-2011 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by hERICtic
08-19-2011 8:49 PM


Re: Parable - Not a Prophecy
Concerning "the consummation of the age" being the end of the church age you write:
No it does not. There are many meanings for age.
If you do not have an anti Christian skeptical agenda, I think it should be obvious that the consummation of the age there in Matt. 13:39 has to be to conclusion of the church age.
The harvest must be the harvest of the "plants" which were sown. The plants which were sown are the sons of the kingdom (v.38). The sons of the kingdom can only be the faithful followers and believes in Jesus Christ. In other words, those who respond positively to the Gospel of Christ preached throughout the whole book of Matthew.
Since the kingdom is a matter of GROWTH and DEVELOPMENT, the climax or "harvest" at the consummation of the age must be the final stage of this growth of spiritual life within the receivers of the Gospel of the kingdom.
At that time the age of the church turns to the age of the manifestation of the kingdom in ruling power over the earth.
"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth" (Matt. 5:5
Ie. Meekness in the face of the world's opposition during the long church age, will result in reward of possessing the earth at the second coming of Christ. Therefore this second coming at one time CLOSES the age of the church and OPENS the age of the reigning and ruling over the earth.
Without the excuse of hunting for multiple meanings of "age" it should be obvious that Matt. 13:39 is about the conclusion of this church age and the initiation of the time for the faithful overcoming believers, to " inherit the earth. "
Why are you bouncing around to Revelation, when the meaning is easily found in what the author of Matthew believed?
Like many skeptics, you're just mad that there is an overall consistency to the revelation of the Bible. You'd like to divide and conquer. You'd like to "kill the beast" of revelation by cutting it to pieces and far separating your pieces one from another.
Have you not read that God told Israelites that He would supply His truth to them here a little and there a little ?
"Therefore Jehovah's word to them will be: Rule upon rule, rule upon rule; Line upon line, line upon line; Here a little, there a little; That they may go and stumble backward." (Isa. 28:13)
You are stumbling because here a little in Matthew we are told of the kingdom. And yet there a little in Revelation we are given more details about the same kingdom.
You are stumbled backwards because we have a few lines here in Matthew and a few lines in Revelation - "line upon line, line upon line."
Since it is all not laid out for you in one place you leap at the excuse to disbelieve. You're falling into a trap to weed out the rebellious.
Matthew 13 clearly states this "age" is to occur with angels seperating mankind, punishing some with fire, others with life.
The teaching says "The Son of Man will send His angels and COLLECT OUT OF HIS KINGDOM all the stumbling blocks and those who practice lawlessness." (v.41)
The teaching reveals the kingdom of the heavens in a stage of being present and needing to be rid of "stumbling blocks". This is the need for the church age to come to a point where the genuine overcoming saints of Christ have the imposters seperated FROM them in the world. Then what remains is the overcoming saints and the earth over which they now enjoy a ruling inheritance.
"Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father." (v.43)
The stumbling blocks in this parable are false Christians. The tares are false Christians. The tares which the enemy sowed and which are often indistinguishable from the kingdom people are the result of the sowing of God's enemy. It is to confuse the situation for the express purpose of hindering the sons of the kingdom from maturing and growing.
These tares in this parable are not general unbelievers. They have the specific function of being counterfeit disciples. They have the specific function of being a FACADE. Apparently, they are related to Jesus. But actually they are a facade, a counterfeit.
The situation exists in the world throughout the church age. The disciples are forbidden to try to rid the WORLD of false Christians. The discipes are commanded not to attempt to eliminate false Christians from the world. The elimination will be carried out by the angels of God at the conclusion of the church age.
The command was disobeyed by Roman Catholicism. The Roman Catholic Church recognized the problem of FALSE disciples of Christ. But they disobeyed Christ's command and tried to eliminate heretics from the world. As a result many genuine Christians were also tortured and murdered.
The Lord had TOLD His servants NOT to attempt to seperate out false Christians from the world:
"And the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where then did the tares come from?
And he said to them, An enemy has done this. And the slaves said to him, Do you want us then to go an collect them? But he said, NO, LEST WHILE COLLECTING THE TARES, YOU UPROOT THE WHEAT ALONE WITH THEM.
Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Collect first the tares and bind them into bundles to burn them up, but the what gather into my barn" (v. 27-30 my emphasis)
Therefore the will of God was that real Christians should not go throughout the WORLD in the church age and attempt to gather together the false Christians. They will make mistakes. The job has to be done at the end of the church age by God's angels who will not make a mistake.
When you think of the Spanish Inquisition and the like, you must recall Christ's instructions for the disciple NOT to attempt to eliminate heretics and false Christians from the world.
They may exclude them from the CHURCH. But they should not try to hunt them down and eliminate them from the WORLD.
It is my opinion that the word "bundles" may mean that the angels will collect the various false Christians into different catagories. At any rate they will be burned up. So we need to make sure that we are not a false follower of Jesus.
Especially we should not try to put on a facade of caring for following Jesus when all along having in mind tripping up, discouraging, disheartening, and misleading the genuine followers of Christ.
Matthew 16 also states this, yet adds that some disciples will be alive when this happens.
It is a fact that some disciples will be alive when it happens. It is not necessarily the case that Jesus said THOSE disciples as His present audience would be alive when it happens.
Many people read verse 28 and substitute "second coming of Christ" in the place where the words read "the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" .
But Peter was there. And Peter tells us that he was an eyewitness to the event in this way:
"For we did not follow clevery devised myths hen we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we became eyewitnesses of that One's majesty. For He received from God the Father honor and glory, a voice such as this being borne to Him by the magnificent glory: This is My Son, My Beloved, in whom I delight.
And this voce we heard being borne out of heaven while we were with Him in the holy mountian." (2 Peter 1:16-18)
This is a reference to the three disciples experience on the "Mount of Transfiguration". Peter does not say they were eyewitnesses of the second coming of Christ. He says they were eyewitness of "the power and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ " .
He means that they witnessed the splendid power and divine manifestation of this God-Man as a preview of His eventual second coming.
It is clear to Peter, from the very same letter, that he expects to expire BEFORE that second coming occurs:
"And I consider it right, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by a reminder, KNOWING THAT THE PUTTING OFF OF MY TABERNACLE IS IMMINENT, even as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me." (vs. 13,14 my emphasis)
What Christ had made clear to Peter, who was on that mountain to witness Christ's transfiguraion, was not that he would live until the end of the age and His second coming. Rather it was made clear to him that he was about to die. Therefore as a responsible and good apostle Peter prepared coming generations of believers for the long distance run.
Matthew 24, in fact clearly lays out when this age is. His disciples will be witness to it!
In Matthew 24 "this generation" refers to a moral generation and not a chronological generation.
When He says "this generation shall by no means pass away until all these things happen" He meant the generation characterized by the national rejection of the Jewish Messiah. The leaders of that generation are the responsible priests, religious authorities, elders of the nation, and scribes of the law of Moses. All these will continue to adopt a NATIONAL rejection of Jesus Christ as their Messiah until the second coming of Christ.
Though Jews here and there may turn to believe in Christ, on a national level, we should not expect Israel to accept Jesus as the Messiah until all the things related to the great tribulation and His second coming have come to pass.
"Truly I say to you that this generation shall by no means pass away until all these things happen."
So far history has borne that out.
Matthew 25 again talks about seperating mankind with angels present. Rewarding some, punishing others. Which again, refers back to Matthew 16. In fact, Matthew 24 after describing how his disicples would be witnesses to the end of the age, continues with his speech into chapter 25.
This requires longer response then I will offer now.
HOWEVER, it is the case that the decision of judgment in Matthew 25:32-46 is not based on the Gospel of grace preached by the apostles in the church age. These people may not even know who Jesus Christ was at all.
This special judgment is also at the commencement of the millennial kingdom. It is over those nations who are left alive after the great tribulation. They are not resurrected and judged as at the last judgment of the great white throne in Revelation 20.
Ie. "And I saw the DEAD, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened; and another scroll was opened, which is the book of life. And the DEAD were judged by the things which were written in the scrools, according to their works ... And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (See Rev. 20:13,15)
This judgment is after the thousand years millennial kingdom. And it is of "the dead" according to verses 12 and 13.
The judgment occuring right after the second coming of Christ when He sits on the throne of His glory in the Holy Land is of the living Gentiles gathered before Him.
"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him, at that time He will sit on the throne of His glory. And all the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separatethem from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
And He wil set the sheep on His right hand and the goats on the left. Then the King will sau to thsoe on His right hand, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." (Matt. 25:31-34)
1.) This event is at the end of the church age "when the Son of Man comes". This event follows the second coming of Christ.
2.) The throne of His glory upon which He sits is the same throne refered to in Matthew 19:28 where He in coordination with Him the Jewish disciples will sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel:
"And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you who have followed Me, in the restoration, WHEN THE SON OF MAN SITS ON THE THRONE OF HIS GLORY, you also shall sit on twleve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matt. 19:28 my emphasis)
The twelve disciples (including the replacement for Judas Iscariot), will sit on twelve thrones and judge the nation of Israel as they will be co-kings with the Messiah in His Messianic kingdom.
3.) This throne of Christ's glory is the same throne of David upon which the Messiah will sit via Luke 1:31-33:
"And behold you will conceive in you womb and bear a son, and you shall call His name Jesus.
And He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to Him the throne of David His father, and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and Hius kingdom there will be no end." (Luke 1:31-33)
This also points to the Messianic kingdom on the earth immediately following the second coming of Christ. The 1,000 years "Restoration" preceed the eternal age.
The "Restoration" and and Messianic kingdom of 1,000 years are between the Second Coming of Christ and the eternal age AFTER the thousand years are completed.
It has its function to reward those who willingly cooperated with God during the age of grace, the age of the church. It has other functions as well, ie. for God to keep His promises to David concerning a Messianic Age.
4.) This throne of the Son of Man's glory is also the throne mentioned in Jeremiah 3:17.
" At that time they will call Jerusalem the throne of Jehovah, and all the nations will be gathered to it because the name of Jehovah is at Jerusalem; and they will no longer walk after the stubburness of their evil heart." (Jer. 3:17)
5.) The judgment of the Son of Man on the throne of His glory in the Holy Land is associated with Jerusalem, the Messianic capital of that world.
But the last judgment after the millennium sees both heaven and earth removed from view and the dead suspended before the face of God in Christ:
"And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose face earth and heaven fled away and no place was found for them." (Rev. 20:11)
The natural world has altogether receded from the face of Christ on the great white throne in the last judgment. There is no Holy Land and no Jerusalem to speak of. Only the dead suspended in space before the holy God in judgment for their eternal destiny.
So the judgment of Matthew 25:31-46 in the Holy Land is different from the last judgment at the great white throne suspended in space with nothing but God and the resurrected DEAD.
And -
5.) The judgment of the Son of Man in the Holy Land is accociated with the valley of decision in the valley of Jehoshaphat in the Holy Land at the second coming of Christ according to the propet Joel:
"Hurry and come, all you surrounding nations, and be gathered. There cause You mighty ones to descend, O Jehovah!
Let the nations rouse themselves and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat. For there I WILL SIT TO JUDGE ALL THE SURROUNDING NATIONS ... Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision; For the day of Jehovah has drawn near in the valley of decision." (See Joel 3:11-14)
Matthew 25:31-46 is about God incarnate as Jesus Christ gathering the nations in the valley of Jehoshaphat. The sheep and the goats will be divided. And the Son of Man on the throne of His glory will decide which nations will be transfered into the millennial kingdom and which will go to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by hERICtic, posted 08-19-2011 8:49 PM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by hERICtic, posted 08-20-2011 6:03 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 174 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-20-2011 8:14 PM jaywill has replied

hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4517 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 172 of 213 (629873)
08-20-2011 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by jaywill
08-20-2011 5:05 PM


Re: Parable - Not a Prophecy
Jaywill,
As always your post is well thought out and indepth, but as usual, far too long. LOL!
It would take me a week to cover everything. But a few things stood our right away.
JW writes:
It is a fact that some disciples will be alive when it happens. It is not necessarily the case that Jesus said THOSE disciples as His present audience would be alive when it happens.
Once I read this, I know it would be fruitless to get into any indepth debate with you. This is simple comprehension.
Matthew 16: 28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
Jesus is talking directly to his disciples, in front of him. He clearly states YOU (as hes talking to them) and standing HERE.
To say this does not apply directly to them, and means others besides those Jesus is talking to is ridiculous. If that is the path you are going to go down, every pronoun then has lost its meaning.
Also, to suggest "age" means thousands of years later is absurd. After telling is disciples about this "age", his disciples ask "when" the end of the age shall occur. Jesus clearly lays out the "when", with them being witnesses.
Jay writes:
In Matthew 24 "this generation" refers to a moral generation and not a chronological generation.
Wrong. Not once in the entire Bible is "this generation" mean anything but the timeline of the present, the one they are in.
If fact, Matthew 23 also uses "this generation" and it refers to the one they are presently in.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by jaywill, posted 08-20-2011 5:05 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by jaywill, posted 08-20-2011 7:51 PM hERICtic has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 173 of 213 (629887)
08-20-2011 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by hERICtic
08-20-2011 6:03 PM


Re: Parable - Not a Prophecy
Once I read this, I know it would be fruitless to get into any indepth debate with you. This is simple comprehension.
Matthew 16: 28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
"Truly I say to you, there are some of those standing here who shall by no means taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" (Matt. 16:28)
Since Peter was standing there as a candidate recipient of the prophesy it behooves us to see what his interpretation of the event was. And his evaluation of the matter is seen in Second Peter 1:12-18
I can believe one of two alternatives.
1.) Peter was either mistaken or twisting dishonestly the matter and you, Heretic, have the correct interpretation.
2.) Peter is honest and faithful in his testimony and understanding and you, Heretic, are less of an authority on the matter.
I choose to believe that latter. Nothing personal.
Jesus is talking directly to his disciples, in front of him. He clearly states YOU (as hes talking to them) and standing HERE.
No problem with that. The issue is what was meant in the mind of Christ by "the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" .
And Matthew immediately follows the account with the transfiguration six days latter.
Below I will explain why you misunderstand "the coming of the Son of Man in His kingdom" to ONLY mean the second coming of Christ. But not yet.
To say this does not apply directly to them, and means others besides those Jesus is talking to is ridiculous. If that is the path you are going to go down, every pronoun then has lost its meaning.
You said my post was long. But this is not a length problem.
The next passage involves three disciples who WERE standing there when Jesus spoke of some not tasting death until they SEE the Son of Man coming in His kingdom - "Peter and James and John" .
They had not tasted death yet. The rub is that where Jesus said "the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" you have mentally substituted "the Second Coming".
You're wrong. That the divinity of Christ, concealed in the shell of His humanity, should radiate out as it will be in the coming kingdom, is a great matter.
For a moment what was concealed within the shell of His humanity temporarily shown out. And this glorification Christ called the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. Think of it as a preview.
Also, to suggest "age" means thousands of years later is absurd. After telling is disciples about this "age", his disciples ask "when" the end of the age shall occur. Jesus clearly lays out the "when", with them being witnesses.
To God a thousand years is as one day and one day as a thousand years.
The jist of your complaint is that Jesus lied, or was mistaken and that all His prophesy is all over. Now for the unbeliever this may offer comfort to continue his life as if there is no need for a Savior or salvation. But I am betting that the wiser choice is understand His additional words there in Matthew 24:
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall by no means pass away." (Matt. 24:35)
The reliability of the words of Jesus Christ are more secure than the existence of the physical universe.
You believe what you wish. I am placing my trust in the fact that the trustworthiness of Christ's words is more solid than the endurance of the very physical universe. Heaven and earth may pass away but His word will not fail.
Therein is my trust.
Jay writes:
In Matthew 24 "this generation" refers to a moral generation and not a chronological generation.
Wrong. Not once in the entire Bible is "this generation" mean anything but the timeline of the present, the one they are in.
Sure, more than once a generation can mean a moral generation:
Sometimes "generation" was defined according to the age of a person as in Matt. 1:17 - ie. "generations" there. At another time "generation" is defined by the moral condition of the people as in:
"But to what shall I liken this generation? It is like little children sitting in the marketplaces, who call to the others and say, We have played the flute to you, and you did not dance; we have sung a dirge, and you did not mourn." (Matt. 11:16,17)
This is a "generation" defined by hypocritical excuse making regardless how God's prophets come with the divine message. That is a "generation" discribed by a moral condition.
"But He answered and said to them, An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and a sign shall not be given to it except the sign of Jonah the prophet."
See also verse 41, 42, and 45 - " Thus shall it be also with this EVIL GENERATION"
And in the Old Testament - Proverbs 30:11-14:
"There is a GENERATION that curse their father, and do not bless their mother.
There is a GENERATION that are pure in their own eyes, And yet are not washed from their filthiness.
There is a GENERATION - oh how lofty are their eyes, And their eyelids are raised [arrogantly].
There is a GENERATION whose teeth are like swords, And their jaw teeth like knives, to devour the afflicted from off the earth and the needy from among men. " (Prov. 30:11-14)
The very fact that Jesus immediatly follows verse 34 about "this generation" with words about heaven and earth being more likely to pass then His predictions, should clue you that He is equiping the disciples for the LONG HAUL rather than the short.
If fact, Matthew 23 also uses "this generation" and it refers to the one they are presently in.
When they asked Jesus at what time the kingdom would be restored to Israel in Acts chapter one, He did not teach that it was in their lifetime per se.
"It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has set by His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you shall be My witnesses ..." (Acts 1:7,8a)
Why didn't Jesus remind them that He had told them before their contemporaries died off the kingdom would come ?
All things considered, though generation DOES indeed speak of physical life span, it does not ALWAYS do so.
I think the generation in Matthew 24:34 is morally characterized as the rejecting nation of Israel led by their unbelieving leaders.
And verse 35 encourages the disciples to not lose heart no matter how long time continues. Even if heaven and earth should pass away, His word will not pass away.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by hERICtic, posted 08-20-2011 6:03 PM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by hERICtic, posted 08-21-2011 12:11 PM jaywill has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 174 of 213 (629888)
08-20-2011 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by jaywill
08-20-2011 5:05 PM


Re: Parable - Not a Prophecy
Though Jews here and there may turn to believe in Christ, on a national level, we should not expect Israel to accept Jesus as the Messiah until all the things related to the great tribulation and His second coming have come to pass.
"Until"
Let me ask you a question, Dr Jaywill.
You said at the first resurrection, God will seperate the real christians from the fake ones, correct? And the fake ones will be gathered and burned
At this same time or at the 1000 year reign, Christ will reunite the still disbelieving Jews to his kingdom.
Unless I am misunderstanding "Burn" in that passage, why would disbelieving Jews, even up to the point of the second coming, get a second chance at repentance, but unworthy Christians, be sent immediately to punishment, without a second chance.
If I am misunderstanding something or have misinterpreted something I apologize
You may have stated otherwise somewhere else, or I just did not see it
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by jaywill, posted 08-20-2011 5:05 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by jaywill, posted 08-20-2011 8:58 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 175 of 213 (629893)
08-20-2011 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Dawn Bertot
08-20-2011 8:14 PM


Re: Parable - Not a Prophecy
You said at the first resurrection, God will seperate the real christians from the fake ones, correct? And the fake ones will be gathered and burned
My understanding is NOT that Christ will resurrect false believers to judge them with damnation.
My understanding of the wheat and tares parable is that the angels will gather out of the world the living false Christians. I think the gathering of them into bundles to burn is done "first".
"Collect first the tares and bind them into bundles to burn them up, but the wheat gather into my barn." (13:30b)
At this same time or at the 1000 year reign, Christ will reunite the still disbelieving Jews to his kingdom.
Unless I am misunderstanding "Burn" in that passage, why would disbelieving Jews, even up to the point of the second coming, get a second chance at repentance, but unworthy Christians, be sent immediately to punishment, without a second chance.
This is just a little dense to the point that I'd like to consider it.
The tares are not unworthy Christians. They are false Christians.
Unworthy Christians are defeated Christians. Overcoming Christians are those who overcome and are rewarded during the millennial kingdom.
Out of those defeated Christians there are different degrees of discipline. There is a wide range of things Christ will do with the defeated believers who actually possess the gift of eternal life.
In the most serious cases, some will be burned temporarily. None will be punished eternally for eternal redemption is assured.
Consider that the spectrum of possible remedies for defeated believers who did not come up to a level of normality, is wide according to what Christ deems each one needs.
In the parable, "the righteous will will shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father" (v.43) should refer to the overcomers. That is non-defeated Christians who matured in the age of grace. They are rewarded. They do not lose the reward.
So to be rewarded in the millennial kingdom is not merely a matter of being not a false Christian. You must be, in addition to not being a nominal Christian, be one who overcomes to prevail by the grace of Christ which He has given inwardly to every true believer.
Some of this may not be exactly what you were asking the "Dr" - lol. Thanks for the encouragment.
If I am misunderstanding something or have misinterpreted something I apologize
You may have stated otherwise somewhere else, or I just did not see it
I am not prepared to comment on the matter of the unbelieving or believing Jews. But I will think on what you asked.
Maybe I don't know the answer. But if you have an opinion about it, please spell things out real clearly so I know what you mean.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-20-2011 8:14 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-20-2011 9:22 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 179 by IamJoseph, posted 08-20-2011 11:21 PM jaywill has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 176 of 213 (629897)
08-20-2011 9:18 PM


Unless I am misunderstanding "Burn" in that passage, why would disbelieving Jews, even up to the point of the second coming, get a second chance at repentance, but unworthy Christians, be sent immediately to punishment, without a second chance.
I have always believed that at the repentance discribed in Zechariah 12, the Jews at the darkest moment of the tribulation, turn to believe in Christ. He is coming on the clouds over the holy land to rescue the remnant of Israel.
From that point they look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as for an only son. This is Zechariah's prophecy.
This is the belief now of the nation of Israel. And in this belief the remnant of surviving Israelites go into the millennial kingdom.
The Tares are are all UNBELIEVERS who pose themselves as disciples of Christ.
I do not presume to know too much. But the SHEEP of Matthew 25:31-46 are not born again Christians. Neither are they judged according to belief in Christ.
These are living people who will be transfered from the tribulation time to be the nations over whom the sons of God will reign in the millennial kingdom. And the Jews will be priests to these saved nations.
This throws a wrench into the works of much evangelical Christianity. But according to the text, their being saved to inherit the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world is based on how they TREATED the persecuted brothers of the Lord down to the least of them.
For their kindness, they enter into the 1,000 year kingdom as SHEEP.
If it helps at all, I think I understand the Jews by that time as ALL accepting Christ as the Messiah, the SHEEP of the nations Gentiles who were kind to the persecuted brothers of the Lord, down to the least of them during the reign of Antichrist, and the goats as the followers of Antichrist who considered the brothers of the Lord as probably "enemies of the state" or otherwise a social nuisance in that new age under Antichrist.
Tares, I think, are the malicious FALSE believers in Christ planted by the enemy. You know that in some "churches" even the one lead "pastor" may be an atheist or unbeliever who parades himself as a disciple of Christ.
His or her enfluence is devastating to true believers who come under his or her spell. This is serious deception. And Christ will apparently deal with the tares negatively.
The "bundles" plural may refer to different kinds of false believers.

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-20-2011 9:49 PM jaywill has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 177 of 213 (629898)
08-20-2011 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by jaywill
08-20-2011 8:58 PM


Re: Parable - Not a Prophecy
Some of this may not be exactly what you were asking the "Dr" - lol. Thanks for the encouragment.
You deserve it and command that type of respect
My understanding of the wheat and tares parable is that the angels will gather out of the world the living false Christians. I think the gathering of them into bundles to burn is done "first".
By false Christians, you mean, not a child of God at all, correct?
I am not prepared to comment on the matter of the unbelieving or believing Jews. But I will think on what you asked.
Maybe I don't know the answer. But if you have an opinion about it, please spell things out real clearly so I know what you mean.
Naaaa, I started a response to your above statement, but thought it not important enough to distract from your present course.
We as brothers are in about 99.99999% harmony on any doctrinal issues and thats all that matters
heck, we are brothers in Christ and that is what is really matters
I always await with anticipation your next post in any thread, its like a big meal at the Golden Corral. A spiritual fillup
thanks for your dedication and knowledge
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by jaywill, posted 08-20-2011 8:58 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by jaywill, posted 08-21-2011 6:47 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 178 of 213 (629900)
08-20-2011 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by jaywill
08-20-2011 9:18 PM


Tares, I think, are the malicious FALSE believers in Christ planted by the enemy. You know that in some "churches" even the one lead "pastor" may be an atheist or unbeliever who parades himself as a disciple of Christ.
I did not realize things could or would deteriate to that point. Would you consider that something as een happening at present?
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by jaywill, posted 08-20-2011 9:18 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by jaywill, posted 08-21-2011 6:57 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 179 of 213 (629906)
08-20-2011 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by jaywill
08-20-2011 8:58 PM


CLOWNS TO THE LEFT - JOKERS TO THE RIGHT.
quote:
I am not prepared to comment on the matter of the unbelieving or believing Jews.
Do you mean there is another group on the planet who proved their belief more so than the disbelieving Jews, for a longer period and against more existential wars against the mightiest powers in history? Are Jews unbelievers because Christianity says so or because Islam does - it seems that the Jews would be wrong whichever side they looked - and worse if they just remained as Jews.
I wonder what would happen if Christians and Muslims were locked up in a room and not allowed out till they resolve their absolute contradictory messages - which are in contradiction of their core doctrines, of history, geography, dates and places - even of the same space-time they are discussing. It seems reasonable this should be demanded of these two systems, otherwise all their claims must go south.
Among the first items on the board would be that each prove that a figure called Jesus even existed - they shouldn have no problem here - this was a period when such proof would be simple; writings was commonplace. Each must prove that Jesus existed, but never crucified as well as that he lived a long life in Egypt [says Muslims]; each will have to prove why the immaculate birth is accepted by both but not any resurrection. Each will have to explain why there is no proof of a Roman trial or of a singe apostle, and that the claim the Gospels was written by so many apostles, first in Hebrew then in Greek - with a total vacuum of such proof. Where are your dead sea scrolls - you have never been holocausted and dispersed throughout the nations and held in ghettoes - what's your excuse? Why is there proof of 3,200 year David but not of JC or a single figure in the Gospels?
Hardest, how would a Jesus respond, if he even existed, at a Roman trial: remember a heresy decree applied here. How would Jesus react to the charge of not worshipping Jupiter and the Roman emperor - was he a rebelious person in this regard - or only the Jews were rebelous? And how would the Romans react to Jesus in such a trial - would they freely release him and blame the Jews instead? Of course not - so lets invent some beedy eyed, sniggering Jews dancing of another Jews' death - ala Mad [2000 lashes per frame] Mel's passion. Yes that should fix it - the Jews have a history of such acts, right?
Maybe a judge would decide both are wrong and the Jews right. Maybe no proof of anything does not conclude in it being true by belief but false by facts of reality. Maybe that is why Christians and Muslims are never seen confronting their own contradictions but attacking Jews instead. Maybe two religions should be very scared if a true and real Messiah does come? The bottom line says, if either one of Christianity or Islam is right - there will be disatser as a result; not so if Judaism is right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by jaywill, posted 08-20-2011 8:58 PM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-21-2011 12:02 AM IamJoseph has replied

Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 4422 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 180 of 213 (629907)
08-21-2011 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by IamJoseph
08-20-2011 11:21 PM


Re: CLOWNS TO THE LEFT - JOKERS TO THE RIGHT.
Hello IamJoseph,
I wonder what would happen if Christians and Muslims were locked up in a room and not allowed out till they resolve their absolute contradictory messages - which are in contradiction of their core doctrines, of history, geography, dates and places - even of the same space-time they are discussing. It seems reasonable this should be demanded of these two systems, otherwise all their claims must go south.
I would add the Jews to this. I would change it to read -
I wonder what would happen if Jews,Christians and Muslims were locked up in a room and not allowed out till they resolve their absolute contradictory messages. It seems reasonable this should be demanded of these two systems, otherwise all their claims must go south.
The bottom line says, if either one of Christianity or Islam is right - there will be disatser as a result; not so if Judaism is right.
I think it would be a disaster if any of them were right. It would mean that all humanity will forever have to live under a totalitarian regime. It will mean that everyone must either bend their knee to a God they may want to deny or be punished.
from the Tenents of Faith -
I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, Blessed be His Name, knows all the deeds of human beings and all their thoughts, as it is written, "Who fashioned the hearts of them all, Who comprehends all their actions" (Psalms 33:15).
I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, Blessed be His Name, rewards those who keep His commandments and punishes those that transgress them.
Another terrible thought is that the God we would all have to bend our knee to would be a horrible, uncaring, brutal God. He sat back and watched millions and millions of people dill and die for no reason without lifting a finger. And that is just the people who have suffered after the faith began. He would have had to sit back and watch every human who has ever lived prior to the religion forming die without any knowledge of him and with no way of knowing his rules. I would not bow to this god. He is an arsehole. If any of the three monotheistic faiths are proven true, then their god (who is supposed to be all powerful yet has allowed huge amounts of suffering without lifting a finger) is a merciless tyrant. A tyrant who will require our love.
That is a disaster for humanity in my book.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by IamJoseph, posted 08-20-2011 11:21 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by IamJoseph, posted 08-21-2011 1:19 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

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