Size of singularity

I didn't say that the universe is infinite. The universe is expanding so it must have had a point at which it started. Expanding into nothing is what makes no sense to me.

But the universe is space. Space is the universe. When you say that space is infinite, you're saying that the universe is infinite.Why would an infinite universe possess only finite mass? That doesn't make any sense.Sorry, Jerry. It just doesn't make any sense to me. It's not expanding into anything, or nothing, though. It's just expanding. There doesn't need to be anything for it to expand into. That doesn't make any sense, anyway.

It may be easier, and you might even believe it more rational, but neither ease or believability have anything to do with whether or not something is correct.Right now we seem to be limited to observing only a four dimensional universe. We have speculated that more than the observable four dimensions might exist, but so far, that is simply math. We have no observations that a fifth or greater dimension exists.Although things are often hard to understand or accept, we are really limited to what can be observed. What can be observed is a four dimensional universe of finite size.That's it.Not infinite. Finite.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, I guess I'm never going to see it the way everybody else does. In my mind I see space as neverending (infinite), because I can not comprehend how it could end, and I see a universe as a finite formation that takes up a very small area within that infinite space. I think that within infinite space formations we call universes are a common occurance.

Then why do we see nothing that is further than about 14-15 billions light years away?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I have seen you mention this a few times and each time I have wondered why infinite mass would cause this. As far as I can figure, infinite space with infinite mass spread fairly evenly would mean infinite gravity pulling you (and everthing else) in ALL directions. Even a black hole, no matter how massive, would be pulled apart by infinite gravity from every direction.Now I have a fairly limited knowledge when it comes to cosmology, but this seems far more likely. Comments?Edited to fix quote.This message has been edited by compmage, 06-15-2004 04:43 PM

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Freedom, morality, and the human dignity of the individual consists precisely in
this; that he does good not because he is forced to do so, but because he freely
conceives it, wants it, and loves it.
- Mikhail Bakunin, God and the State, from The Columbian Dictionary of Quotations

Square of the distance.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Now you are beginning to understand that some natural phenomenon can be all but impossible to wrap ones mind around.
Heisenberg after realizing the Uncertainty Principle was said to have walked around the streets of Berlin mumbling.."The universe can not possibly be this ridiculous." So you see Jerry you are in good company .

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"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

Well, I had thought that I had explained that to you. Space can be finite in volume but unbounded in three dimensions, much as the surface of a sphere has finite area but is unbounded in two dimensions.

Well, for one thing, how would it get that spread out? How would a universe even form with infinite mass, when the mass would collapse it back into singularity immediately?Or something. Honestly, I have literally no idea. And I don't even care that much about the shape of the universe.

Jar
What if the next universe is 14-15 trillion light years away? Would we still be able to see it? Why would this be the one and only universe ever formed? Thats like believing that we are the center of the universe or that the world is flat.

JerryOT but when you respond to someone, like on the red button of the post you are responding to instead of the last post. That way notification is sent to the right person.You asked and those are good questions.But the answer is the same as currently for the dimensions greater than the four we can sense. While other universes may well be possible, perhaps even exist, there is currently no way to test or observe their existence. Certain mathmatical models, for example the recent Brane conjectures, are based on the existence of other things. But that is as far as we can go. It is pure speculation. So far, such ideas are untestable beyond the mathmatical model.Specifically, if thhere were another universe, even if it were 14-15 trillion light years away, should be testable. It will have mass and because of that, it should distort that part of our universe closest to it. But we do not see any such distortion. So even if it does exist, we can see no evidence for it. And since we see no evidence for it, since all we CAN see or experience would be exactly the same even if it were not there, there is no reason to suppose that it is there.Are we together so far?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Well, for one thing, how would it get that spread out? How would a universe even form with infinite mass, when the mass would collapse it back into singularity immediately?

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As I understand it, recent observational data (e.g., Boomerang experiment) show that the universe is "flat" which implies that it is infinite in extent.As far as spreading out infinite mass, I'd speculate that it has something to do with the early inflationary period where space expanded faster than the speed of light, whereas gravity travels at the speed of light (something trying to be confirmed by experiments such as LIGO searching for gravity waves).

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Expanding into nothing is what makes no sense to me.

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Gets even more confusing when cosmologist talk about the expansion without taking up external space (like some kind of internal, hyperspacial property).

Earlier in this thread, there were discussions of singularities. I think it is important to note that a black hole singularity is a different phenomenon than the Big Bang "singularity". A black hole is an object within spacetime whereas the Big Bang seed (whatever it was) was all of spacetime. From the first instant of Time, the universe was infinite/boundless....but everything was a lot closer together....close enough to be compared to a proton, pea, basketball or whatever. The state of the universe at Time = 0 remains a mystery although things like String Theory are producing some interesting ideas about it. I've also heard it said that another way to think about the Big Bang singularity is not like a point but instead like a mathematical situation in which there are no differences throughout the universe (its characteristic is singular). Upon expansion, this singularity condition fragmented into the energies & fundamental particles that later cooled and formed the universe we see today.either way, it's enough to make your brain hurt trying to think about it