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Author Topic:   UK's Thatcher, rot in hell . . .
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 46 of 149 (696528)
04-16-2013 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by dronestar
04-16-2013 3:28 PM


Re: The sounds of backpedaling . . .
dronester writes:
Wow, from my long postS of factS and exampleS, THIS is what you focused on? THIS pettiness is what you bothered to contest about?
Pretty much, yes. I'm not particularly interested in your 'factS', it's your rabid hatred for someone that you have no personal knowledge of and your demonstration of it that's the issue here.
You know, the "rot in hell, bitch" thing.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by dronestar, posted 04-16-2013 3:28 PM dronestar has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 47 of 149 (696529)
04-16-2013 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by dronestar
04-16-2013 3:20 PM


Re: Frothing at the mouth doesn't help anyone.
Don't be silly, since the video comment was the point from which you criticised me, it's by default, material.
It was your commentary that I found objectionable. There is no video you could refer to with such commentary that would make the commentary acceptable. Therefore, the video itself is irrelevant - what I object to is your casual flinging of the term "sociopath," particularly while in the same post you cheer the demise of a human being.
That's simply ridiculous.
Emotions can't always be forced. Would you tell a holocaust surviver when Hitler died that they HAVE to feel sad? Puhlease.
I don't tell anyone that they have to feel anything. But I'll note that those (few) occasions where I have observed holocaust survivors forgiving Nazis have been some of the most touching and morally exemplary acts I have ever witnessed. There was a Netflix documentary, "Forgiving Dr. Mengele", about a victim who after the war, met and forgave one of the Nazi doctors who performed experiments on her and even moved on to (posthumously) forgive Mengele himself. It was quite moving.
Not everyone is capable of feeling compassion even for an enemy. It's all too easy and all too human to dehumanize those with whom we disagree or those who have committed crimes. That, too, is sad.
One: You bet your bottom dollar I do. Virtually everyone does. So do you. Is there any one on the forum who believes otherwise? Anybody? Bueller? . . . Bueller? . . . Bueller?
I make every effort to apply compassion universally. The base human tendency is toward dehumanization and retribution, both of which I find morally repugnant, and therefore I try to avoid them. That tendency exists most strongly regarding those who have committed the worst crimes, and so I pay strongest attention to my positions when speaking of those with whom I most vehemently disagree, or those who have perpetrated the worst acts of suffering.
I'm human, and I'm not perfect, but I don't believe I'd act as the executioner of even Hitler so long as he was removed from power. I am relieved at the failure of his inhuman atrocities, but I am not rejoiced by the fact of his demise. I would be happy if he had abandoned his "final solution" before a single person was killed.
Second: Every human life is not equal. To believe otherwise is delusional/childish. To waste emotion, money, or energy on those who make the world more cruel takes away finite emotion, finite money, and finite energy from those that do matter.
Of course human lives are equal. To consider otherwise begins down the road where a single countryman's life is worth a hundred foreigners, or variations on that theme. Dehumanization, dronester, the valuation of some lives as less than others, is the single largest step toward precisely what the Nazis did.
E.g. If there is finite money to reform a rapist or to feed a child from starvation, I choose the former. So do you, so stop being silly.
That's an interesting scenario, and yet I note that it generally costs significantly more money to try to "reform a rapist" than it does to feed a single child. And, of course, our society is not actually so starved for resources - the resources are simply misappropriated. The largest flaw in your scenario, of course, is that in one case you have a dying child, and in the other you have a rapist who will continue to live even if not reformed. Obviously the resources would go towards saving a life over improving one...which demonstrates not at all my valuation of one life over another, but my equal valuation of life and your absurd bias.
For the record, I do support rehabilitation as the focus of criminal justice systems, including the rehabilitation of rapists and murderers whenever possible, and I never support retribution. Somehow I find room to support the feeding of starving people, regardless of age, as well. If resources were truly limited, I would start with the necessities of providing food, water, clothing and shelter to everyone from children to the elderly to convicted criminals of all sorts, and rehabilitation would be much farther down the list.
Okay, prove it. Show me some tangible way that you REALLY feel sad about EVERY person who died from Thatcher's actions. Find the names of every child that has died a horrible death because of the foreign policies of Thatcher. Describe to me EACH of their sad demise. Was it by bullet, bomb, chemical, nutrition, etc. How long did they suffer before they died? Did the parents see them die? Describe to me how sad the friends and family are because of the actions caused by Thatcher. Then go on to describe the people who are still living with lifelong physical and mental injuries brought about by actions of Thatcher. Perhaps from Thatcher selling the Suadi's small arms weapons, or from chemical technology Thatcher sold to Saddam to gas the Kurds. Tell me how EACH of the victims of Pinochet live with their horrible memories from the actions of Thatcher.
When you do this, I will then know you were not being a hypocrit about being sad when EVERY person dies from Thatcher's policies.
I feel no inclination to accede to your absurd request. I'm not trying to prove anything to you. I'm here only to tell you that dancing on someone's grave demonstrates precisely that which you claim to hate.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by dronestar, posted 04-16-2013 3:20 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by 1.61803, posted 04-16-2013 4:28 PM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 49 by dronestar, posted 04-16-2013 5:19 PM Rahvin has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 48 of 149 (696530)
04-16-2013 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Rahvin
04-16-2013 4:20 PM


Re: Frothing at the mouth doesn't help anyone.
Hi Rahvin,
You are living proof of the humanity, compassion and integrity to be found in atheism.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Rahvin, posted 04-16-2013 4:20 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 49 of 149 (696532)
04-16-2013 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Rahvin
04-16-2013 4:20 PM


It's all about the victims . . .
Sorry Rhavin, I tried to edit before you replied but you must have already started.
This was my original erroneous post . . .
quote:
E.g. If there is finite money to reform a rapist or to feed a child from starvation, I choose the former. So do you, so stop being silly.
This is my corrected post . . .
quote:
E.g. If there is a finite amount of money to reform a rapist or to feed a child from starvation, I choose the later. So do you, so stop being silly.
I am very sorry if I made you type extra.
Rahvin writes:
It was your commentary that I found objectionable.
Your comment is still based on incomplete data.
Rahvin writes:
forgiving Nazis . . .
I would/could NEVER forgive someone who was not sorry. Hitler, Cheney, Bush Jr., Pinochet, Thatcher . . . they are not sorry.
Rahvin writes:
Dehumanization, dronester, the valuation of some lives as less than others, is the single largest step toward precisely what the Nazis did.
Very silly comparison. Trying to compare me with Hitler's final solution? Rhavin, Rhavin, Rhavin. This is why Godwin's Rule exists. Not a very effective debate technique Rhavin.
Rahvin writes:
If resources were truly limited, I would start with the necessities of providing food, water, clothing and shelter to everyone from children to the elderly to convicted criminals of all sorts, and rehabilitation would be much farther down the list.
You are aware that every day thousands of children die of starvation/malnutrition? Yet Reagan, Bush Jr., Thatcher, Obama used/uses tax payer money for weapon production. We SHOULD all scorn the leaders for this. Yet, they get a ticker-tape parade when they die. And on top of that, I, I get compared to a frothing Hitler when I protest! [Dronester shakes his head at the surreal environment he inhabits].
Rahvin writes:
I feel no inclination to accede to your absurd request.
Yes, I realize for some people matching words and actions is a tough act.
Seriously, you're a good writer Rhavin, your words are lovely. It's just a pity your words don't help the victims, or the future victims, at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Rahvin, posted 04-16-2013 4:20 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Rahvin, posted 04-16-2013 5:28 PM dronestar has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 50 of 149 (696534)
04-16-2013 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by dronestar
04-16-2013 5:19 PM


Re: It's all about the victims . . .
dronester, I think I'll simply redirect you back to the very post you're replying to. I think I've said all that needs to be said on the matter. I feel I've sufficiently rebutted your points and expressed my opinions. I'm sad that you feel the way you do, but then...you're hardly unique in your dehumanization of those with whom you disagree.
Margaret Thatcher's life was not worth less than yours. She was a human being, every bit as much as you. You might believe she was misguided, and that her beliefs, combined with the power of her position as Prime Minister, caused great harm to many. I'd very likely agree, and I'm happy that she hasn't been Prime Minister for quite some time. But she was still a person. It's sad that she's dead.
And it's sad that you feel the need to express joy over a sad occasion.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by dronestar, posted 04-16-2013 5:19 PM dronestar has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 51 of 149 (696548)
04-16-2013 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by NoNukes
04-16-2013 2:31 PM


Reagan is completely responsible for his own actions. Surely you can see the attempt to say otherwise in your words quoted above.
I am sorry to hear of your sudden reading difficulties. Do get well soon.
"Everything" is not the same as "Reagan's own actions".

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by NoNukes, posted 04-16-2013 2:31 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 52 of 149 (696549)
04-16-2013 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by dronestar
04-16-2013 3:36 PM


I appreciate your reply nwr, but as we are now in a interconnected global community, we should be more interested in what our 'brother' does in another part of the world, especially when we are supporting it.
There is a lot that I am interested in, that I refrain from commenting on.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by dronestar, posted 04-16-2013 3:36 PM dronestar has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 53 of 149 (696552)
04-16-2013 7:09 PM


Well, this has been interesting.
I loathed Thatcher with the same intensity with which I loathed Reagan. Given the foulness of their politics, I found the dementia that claimed them both ironic.
I share much of dronester's perspective. He is politically passionate, as am I. I think he also recognizes that the fictions with which we bury past leaders often burnish their reputations, and those burnished reputations continue to do real harm. Reagan, like the Hollywood zombie he was, continues to plague the U.S. from the grave.
I note that dronester did not attend Thatcher's funeral and scream epithets. I don't think he would; nor would I.
I fail to see why his venting in a forum should be treated as though he had. Nor do I think his venting makes him an adolescent or a failed human being inured to the largeness of "for whom the bell tolls" compassion.
I can compile a long list of people who most graced life by the leaving of it. Thatcher is on that list. She did a great deal of harm with her power; she failed to do a great deal of good that was within her power.
For me, the greatest significance of her death is that it became an occasion for an outcry against her lionization. That is why commenting now--and not last week--is important: because now is when the effort to rinse her sins away with sanctimony and sentimentality begins.
I have no desire to sadden her family and friends, but for me, like dronester, when the bell rang for Thatcher, it rang ding dong.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Rahvin, posted 04-16-2013 7:32 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 54 of 149 (696554)
04-16-2013 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Omnivorous
04-16-2013 7:09 PM


I can compile a long list of people who most graced life by the leaving of it. Thatcher is on that list. She did a great deal of harm with her power; she failed to do a great deal of good that was within her power.
Part of the reason I feel sadness even for the death of a person who has done great harm is that the finality of death prevents any possibility of reversing the scales. There can be no changing of minds, there can be no alteration of policy, not for the deceased.
The reality is that the harm Thatcher could cause personally ended the day she left all positions of political power. Cheering that day would be perfectly acceptable, and I'd join in as I cheered when Bush the Lesser finally left office here in the US.
Death does not change the balance of help and harm. Not a single person who suffered under Thatcher's policies will have that suffering erased through her death, just as Bush's eventual death will not restore a single Iraqi or Afghani civilian to life.
Death serves no positive purpose when the power to cause more harm has already been stripped. The feeling of satisfaction over the death of another human being can only be a sense of retribution, of vengeance, and those reactions I reject as morally repugnant. Nobody ever "gets what they deserve."
A better world would be one in which we can all feel compassion for each other even when we disagree, where we can encourage that same compassion and respect for the lives of others in our philosophical enemies instead of labeling them as inhuman monsters deserving only of their own suffering and death.
It's perfectly acceptable, laudable even, to condemn those policies that harmed others. It's perfectly fine to say "we shouldn't hold this woman up as a hero, she used her power to hurt people." I'm against expensive state funerals on general principle, even regardless of who's getting buried.
But there's a significant step taken between condemning policy and action, and actually expressing joy at the death of a human being.
To paraphrase myself in my earlier reply to dronester, I am sad for all of the victims of Thatcher's policies. I'm relieved that Thatcher left political power behind many years ago. I'm sad that many of her ideas (rather, the ideas Thatcher ascribed to; I doubt every idea she had was wholly original, and as such she doesn't bear perpetual responsibility for all of them) persist in modern politics, and I hope that political change will occur within my lifetime, the sooner the better. I would have been happy if she had realized the negative repercussions of her actions as Prime Minister and had taken a better course instead.
But mostly I'm sad at her death, and at the fact that so many people still think that the deaths of some people are happy occasions.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Omnivorous, posted 04-16-2013 7:09 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Omnivorous, posted 04-16-2013 8:08 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 55 of 149 (696557)
04-16-2013 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Rahvin
04-16-2013 7:32 PM


First let me sincerely compliment you for both your eloquence and your largeness of spirit.
Let me also say, in passing, that I don't see the conclusion of a decently lived life as an occasion dominated by sorrow.
Rahvin writes:
The reality is that the harm Thatcher could cause personally ended the day she left all positions of political power.
That is where we most acutely disagree, and that is why I welcome the bitter denunciations and the howls of protest at attempts to elevate her into a pantheon of great leadership: the evil that political leaders do does live on.
Yes, in a better world, filled with better people, our common mortality would constitute an overarching bond of compassion for all. But that is not the world in which we find ourselves, and that is not the spirit that guided Thatcher's hand. With the proviso that she was certainly no Pol Pot, I would observe that castigating one of Pol Pot's victims for celebrating his death would be a petty exercise of better feeling.
I don't feel joy at her death; I don't even feel a quiet satisfaction.
I do feel determined to raise my voice as part of a chorus that says she did a great deal more harm than good--and it is essential to say so now, because this is the moment of her apotheosis.
Whatever compassion I might owe her as a fellow mortal, I owe the living more.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Rahvin, posted 04-16-2013 7:32 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Rahvin, posted 04-16-2013 9:12 PM Omnivorous has seen this message but not replied
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 56 of 149 (696564)
04-16-2013 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Omnivorous
04-16-2013 8:08 PM


I don't feel joy at her death; I don't even feel a quiet satisfaction.
I do feel determined to raise my voice as part of a chorus that says she did a great deal more harm than good--and it is essential to say so now, because this is the moment of her apotheosis.
And this is exactly the right attitude. Decry her policies, point out her mistakes, do your best to ensure that the disastrous actions of the past are not looked back upon with the fondness of "the good old days" that never were.
I oppose only those who say "gee, I'm glad she's dead, I hope she rots in hell." As I've said, there is a large difference between expressing vehement disagreement and moral outrage, and expressing gladness for the death of a human being. You appear to be doing the former, and I applaud you for doing so. dronester is doing the latter.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Omnivorous, posted 04-16-2013 8:08 PM Omnivorous has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 57 of 149 (696571)
04-16-2013 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by dronestar
04-16-2013 9:53 AM


Rot in hell and other examples of liberal tolerance...
I am frequently amazed, but rarely surprised, by the level of hate coming from those on the left who pretend to embrace diversity, tolerance, multiculturalism, freedom of speech, individual liberties, free public discourse and all the rest.
Geoffrey R. Stone wrote an essay titled "What it means to be a liberal" back in 2006. Here are his first three, of ten, principles:
1. Liberals believe individuals should doubt their own truths and consider fairly and open-mindedly the truths of others. This is at the very heart of liberalism. Liberals understand, as Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes once observed, that "time has upset many fighting faiths." Liberals are skeptical of censorship and celebrate free and open debate.
2. Liberals believe individuals should be tolerant and respectful of difference. It is liberals who have supported and continue to support the civil rights movement, affirmative action, the Equal Rights Amendment and the rights of gays and lesbians. (Note that a conflict between propositions 1 and 2 leads to divisions among liberals on issues like pornography and hate speech.)
3. Liberals believe individuals have a right and a responsibility to participate in public debate. It is liberals who have championed and continue to champion expansion of the franchise; the elimination of obstacles to voting; "one person, one vote;" limits on partisan gerrymandering; campaign-finance reform; and a more vibrant freedom of speech. They believe, with Justice Louis Brandeis, that "the greatest menace to freedom is an inert people."
But we see just the opposite in real life. In real life we have:
Diversity--When all colors and creeds are free to believe as liberals want them to. Or else!
The level of hate directed toward anyone who does not remain on the liberal plantation, and kowtow to liberal expectations, is simply amazing. And very informative.
As stated in #1 above, "Liberals are skeptical of censorship and celebrate free and open debate."
In fact, the exact opposite is the case. As an example, any Blacks who don't slavishly follow the liberal line are attacked unmercifully, and destroyed as quickly as possible as a lesson to others, and lest their ideas spread.
So, is this opening post is a good example of tolerance, respect for diversity of opinion, etc.? Or is it an example of pure hatred and intolerance? I'll leave the answer as an exercise for the student.
But I certainly would not like to live under the rule of someone who exhibits so much hate and so little tolerance for other opinions.
[Dons asbestos underwear, as "Hell hath no fury like a liberal scorned" - Dick Gregory]

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

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Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Rahvin, posted 04-16-2013 11:17 PM Coyote has replied
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 58 of 149 (696573)
04-16-2013 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Coyote
04-16-2013 10:25 PM


Re: Rot in hell and other examples of liberal tolerance...
I'd just like to direct you to the thread other than dronester's example. He's quite rabid, but most of us on the left are not. Some of us spoke directly against cheering the death of a political adversary.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Coyote, posted 04-16-2013 10:25 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Coyote, posted 04-16-2013 11:28 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 59 of 149 (696576)
04-16-2013 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Rahvin
04-16-2013 11:17 PM


Re: Rot in hell and other examples of liberal tolerance...
I'd just like to direct you to the thread other than dronester's example. He's quite rabid, but most of us on the left are not. Some of us spoke directly against cheering the death of a political adversary.
I am aware of that, and some of you spoke quite eloquently as well.
You are certainly not among those to whom my comments were directed.
But I do not believe that those of you who post as you have are controlling the dialog and debate from the left. I see way too much pure hatred; the values that many on the left pay lip service to are in sharp contrast to what they actually say and do.
I think we should oppose the extremism on both sides, but I see far less of that for the left than for the right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Rahvin, posted 04-16-2013 11:17 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by hooah212002, posted 04-16-2013 11:45 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied
 Message 61 by Rahvin, posted 04-17-2013 12:23 AM Coyote has seen this message but not replied
 Message 63 by Tangle, posted 04-17-2013 3:35 AM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 60 of 149 (696577)
04-16-2013 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Coyote
04-16-2013 11:28 PM


Re: Rot in hell and other examples of liberal tolerance...
I think we should oppose the extremism on both sides, but I see far less of that for the left than for the right.
We could VERY EASILY say the same about the right, Personal perception works that way.

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Coyote, posted 04-16-2013 11:28 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
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