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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 481 of 2073 (741416)
11-12-2014 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 480 by Colbard
11-12-2014 8:13 AM


Re: Back on track
Well, thanks for the Parable Of The Thing That Didn't Happen, but back in the real world scientific achievements are in fact pretty much reserved for people who follow the scientific method. Whereas people who try to substitute faith for it are a bunch of ineffectual loons.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 480 by Colbard, posted 11-12-2014 8:13 AM Colbard has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(4)
Message 482 of 2073 (741424)
11-12-2014 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 480 by Colbard
11-12-2014 8:13 AM


Re: Back on track
Genuine Biblical studies are not philosophical, but the beginning of faith, whereas science is a study of doubt, hence everything needs to be documented and dissected and approved by a board.
That's not quite right, let me correct it:
Dogmatic Biblical studies are not philosophical, but the beginning of blind faith, whereas science is a study of doubt, hence everything needs to be questioned, documented, and dissected and tested via peer review by other scientists that test results and replicate tests.
The student of faith watches the frog by the pond catching insects and eating them. He examines the poop and discovers parts of insects in it, so he concludes that the frog eats insects and has proof.
That's not quite right, let me correct it:
The student of ecology watches the frog by the pond catching insects and eating them. He examines the poop and discovers parts of insects in it along with worms and some other aquatic critters, so he concludes that the frog eats insects, worms and these other aquatic critters and has evidence. (Faith has nothing to do with this scientific study.)
The student of science, kills a hundred frogs and has a hundred scientists from different parts of the world cut them open and document the gizzards as well as write up an essay to a recognized peer reviewed magazine.
That's not quite right, let me correct it:
The high school student of biology, takes a dead frog, just as hundreds of high school biology students from different parts of the world do, cuts it open and documents the gizzards and muscles and ligaments and bones, as well as write up an essay to report their findings. They compare these finding with similar experiments on other animals to see the homologies between species. Examining the contents of the stomach they see bits of insects, worms and other aquatic critters, confirming that they are digested. This was first done in the 1800's and repetitions of this study only confirm the initial findings: that frogs bear many similarities in bone structure and organs and that these homologies are best explained by evolution from common ancestors. (Faith has nothing to do with this scientific experiment.)
After some years, students will be allowed to buy text books containing this information, and know that frogs eat insects. And be tested on it, and if they fail they will have a mundane career.
That's not quite right, let me correct it:
High school students can readily buy many existing text books (or get them from the library) containing this information, and know that frogs eat insects etc. And be tested on it, and if they fail they will have no career in biological science. (Faith has nothing to do with this scientific field.)
The student of faith still has a pond and is now studying tadpoles.
That's not quite right, let me correct it:
The student of ecology still has a pond and is now studying tadpoles, observing how their numbers decrease due to predation, and their interactions with other life in the pond, including older frogs. (Faith has nothing to do with this scientific study.)
The students of science are sitting in class, hitting each other out of boredom, because the frogs were killed off and there is a plague of insects outside.
That's not quite right, let me correct it:
The students of faith are sitting in class, hitting each other out of denial anger, because they think frogs were killed off and there is a biblical plague of insects outside.
Curiously it seems that dogmatic faith has everything to do with denial of reality, and that the cognitive dissonance caused by evidence that contradicts belief results in reactions that include anger, 'dissing' the messenger/s and further attempts to insulate one from contradictory information via willing ignorance and cherry-picking of only evidence that supports belief, and withdrawing into groups that support the belief/s.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : clrty
Edited by RAZD, : ...

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 480 by Colbard, posted 11-12-2014 8:13 AM Colbard has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 483 of 2073 (741440)
11-12-2014 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 442 by Colbard
11-10-2014 6:29 PM


Re: Bristles
Colbard writes:
While I am sure of a global flood, I don't know how these deposits took place.
I happen to know that my house was built in 1957. I have lived in this neighbourhood myself since 1962, so I know there has been no major construction on this block since then. If a book claimed that my house was built in 1989, what should I conclude? That the observational evidence is wrong and the book is right?
We know that the Dover cliffs are much, much older than 6000 years. We also know that many other formations are much, much older than 6000 years. Some of them, such as the cliffs, simply could not have formed in 6000 years, according to the laws of physics.
So we know that the earth is more than 6000 years old.
We also know, according to the laws of physics, that the Dover Cliffs could not have formed during a one-year flood.
It may be possible to maintain a belief in a 6000-year-old earth and a one-year Flood despite the facts, but that belief has no more place in our schools than a belief in flying pigs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 442 by Colbard, posted 11-10-2014 6:29 PM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 513 by Colbard, posted 11-13-2014 6:32 AM ringo has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 484 of 2073 (741468)
11-12-2014 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 480 by Colbard
11-12-2014 8:13 AM


Re: Back on track
Genuine Biblical studies are not philosophical, but the beginning of faith,
I'm not sure what this means.
whereas science is a study of doubt, hence everything needs to be documented and dissected and approved by a board.
That's...not at all what science is.
Science is the practice of determining the most accurate way to describe reality. It's about proposing different hypotheses to explain real-world phenomenon, and then testing their predictions. Hypothesis A and B could both possibly explain our observations; scientists aim to determine what differentiates A from B, and then perform tests to determine whether A or B is the most accurate explanation.
There is no "committee" that votes on science, because science is not politics or a popularity contest. There is peer review, the process by which independent researchers analyze someone's findings to make sure the results were not a statistical fluke or error, that the methodology was sound, and that the conclusions logically follow.
The student of faith watches the frog by the pond catching insects and eating them. He examines the poop and discovers parts of insects in it, so he concludes that the frog eats insects and has proof.
That doesn't seem to have anything to do at all with faith by any definition found in any dictionary. Can you explain?
The student of science, kills a hundred frogs and has a hundred scientists from different parts of the world cut them open and document the gizzards as well as write up an essay to a recognized peer reviewed magazine.
After some years, students will be allowed to buy text books containing this information, and know that frogs eat insects. And be tested on it, and if they fail they will have a mundane career.
...I'm pretty sure scientists would just do the first thing you said. Dissections have their place, but observing frogs eating insects is sufficient evidence that they do, in fact, eat insects. Fecal examinations might be able to determine what else the frog may have eaten that wasn't directly observed. Dissection would be useful in determining how the frog digested the bugs.
I understand this was hyperbole to mock science, but it's not terribly helpful in a debate to be so wildly inaccurate.
The student of faith still has a pond and is now studying tadpoles.
The students of science are sitting in class, hitting each other out of boredom, because the frogs were killed off and there is a plague of insects outside.
Your implication that science destroys that which it studies is categorically false.
But even if it were true, an appeal to consequence is still a logical fallacy.
The scientific method is the best known method to distinguish truth from falsehood and to distinguish more accurate explanations of the real world from less accurate explanations.
Edited by Admin, : Fix quote.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 480 by Colbard, posted 11-12-2014 8:13 AM Colbard has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 485 of 2073 (741470)
11-12-2014 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 480 by Colbard
11-12-2014 8:13 AM


Re: Back on track
Genuine Biblical studies are not philosophical, but the beginning of faith...
And what makes you think that faith, as opposed to reason and evidence, is a good thing?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 480 by Colbard, posted 11-12-2014 8:13 AM Colbard has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 486 of 2073 (741474)
11-12-2014 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 479 by Coyote
11-11-2014 9:53 PM


Re: Coyotes call
Fossils are far older than 4300 years ago. Think millions of years and older.
Nope, since that contradicts the Creator God's revelation it is wrong and needs to be rethought.
And, no, there is no such global flood evidence around 4350 years ago.
False. It's in your face every time you encounter strata or fossils.
You are letting belief overshadow all the evidence that shows you are wrong.
Yes, that was the point of my post in red. I'm no longer trying to argue the science issues, been there done that, and I still think rather well, the point is that God said there was a worldwide Flood, and the numbers of years calculable from His word show it occurred about 4300 years ago. This is the testimony of the most trustworthy of witnesses and I believe Him and since your observations are at odds with His you need to rethink them.
Cheers.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 479 by Coyote, posted 11-11-2014 9:53 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 487 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-12-2014 3:36 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 488 by Rahvin, posted 11-12-2014 4:42 PM Faith has replied
 Message 493 by PaulK, posted 11-12-2014 5:52 PM Faith has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 487 of 2073 (741476)
11-12-2014 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 486 by Faith
11-12-2014 3:24 PM


Re: Coyotes call
Fossils are far older than 4300 years ago. Think millions of years and older.
Nope, since that contradicts the Creator God's revelation it is wrong and needs to be rethought.
Wrong, since what you think is the Creator God's revelation does not match up with reality, then what you think is the Creator God's revelation is wrong and needs to be rethought.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 486 by Faith, posted 11-12-2014 3:24 PM Faith has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 488 of 2073 (741483)
11-12-2014 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 486 by Faith
11-12-2014 3:24 PM


Re: Coyotes call
I'm no longer trying to argue the science issues, been there done that, and I still think rather well, the point is that God said there was a worldwide Flood, and the numbers of years calculable from His word show it occurred about 4300 years ago. This is the testimony of the most trustworthy of witnesses and I believe Him and since your observations are at odds with His you need to rethink them.
This is not debate, then.
You're just going to continue an appeal to authority on every possible point. There are no arguments that can possibly sway you because they contradict your interpretation of the supposed word of your claimed authority.
If any direct observations are made which contradict that interpretation of those supposed words from that claimed authority, you would say that we need to get our eyes checked.
When reality tells you something, and the Bible tells you something else, your position is literally that you must have heard reality wrong, because the Bible supersedes all observation.
I understand that you're fully convinced of this, Faith, but it's not a position that is likely to convince anyone outside of your choir, or indeed likely to even foster any sort of interesting discussion. After all, we already know what your answer will be.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 486 by Faith, posted 11-12-2014 3:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 489 by Faith, posted 11-12-2014 4:49 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 489 of 2073 (741484)
11-12-2014 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 488 by Rahvin
11-12-2014 4:42 PM


Re: Coyotes call
When reality tells you something, and the Bible tells you something else, your position is literally that you must have heard reality wrong, because the Bible supersedes all observation
Absolutely correct, you got it. What God says trumps EVERYTHING else.
Yes, I'm no longer arguing this, you take it or leave it. Arguing it gets nowhere with hidebound evolutionists, and neither does the appeal to authority, but the bottom line is: God said it, that's it, done deal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 488 by Rahvin, posted 11-12-2014 4:42 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 490 by jar, posted 11-12-2014 4:52 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 492 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-12-2014 5:01 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 500 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-12-2014 7:11 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 490 of 2073 (741485)
11-12-2014 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 489 by Faith
11-12-2014 4:49 PM


Re: Coyotes call
But God said there were two entirely different Biblical Floods that were mutually exclusive, or haven't you ever read the Bible?
Which account of the Biblical Flood is true and which is just a lie?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by Faith, posted 11-12-2014 4:49 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 491 by Rahvin, posted 11-12-2014 4:55 PM jar has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 491 of 2073 (741487)
11-12-2014 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 490 by jar
11-12-2014 4:52 PM


Re: Coyotes call
But God said there were two entirely different Biblical Floods that were mutually exclusive, or haven't you ever read the Bible?
Which account of the Biblical Flood is true and which is just a lie?
Faith
If you read the Bible and think that it's self-contradictory, then you're reading the Bible wrong.
Whatever the Bible says is true, period. Any apparent contradiction is just your fallen mind using fallen logic.
/Faith
Faith, how'd I do?

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 490 by jar, posted 11-12-2014 4:52 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 499 by Faith, posted 11-12-2014 7:07 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 492 of 2073 (741489)
11-12-2014 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 489 by Faith
11-12-2014 4:49 PM


Re: Coyotes call
Well then, we all already know what you are going to say on every topic and there's really no reason for you post here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by Faith, posted 11-12-2014 4:49 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 493 of 2073 (741492)
11-12-2014 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 486 by Faith
11-12-2014 3:24 PM


Re: Coyotes call
quote:
I'm no longer trying to argue the science issues, been there done that, and I still think rather well,
I don't think that telling obvious lies is doing "rather well". If you're reduced to trying to pretend that the evidence doesn't exist, then you really don't have a rational case.
quote:
the point is that God said there was a worldwide Flood, and the numbers of years calculable from His word show it occurred about 4300 years ago
That's the interpretation you prefer of words that you attribute to God. You've not made any sort of case for either being certainly true.
quote:
This is the testimony of the most trustworthy of witnesses and I believe Him and since your observations are at odds with His you need to rethink them.
In other words, since the evidence is in conflict with the claims of the men you worship we seriously ought to consider lying and suppressing the evidence. And why should we ? Come to that, why should you, if you really are a Christian ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 486 by Faith, posted 11-12-2014 3:24 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 494 by Rahvin, posted 11-12-2014 6:07 PM PaulK has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(2)
Message 494 of 2073 (741493)
11-12-2014 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 493 by PaulK
11-12-2014 5:52 PM


Re: Coyotes call
I don't think that telling obvious lies is doing "rather well". If you're reduced to trying to pretend that the evidence doesn't exist, then you really don't have a rational case.
She's not lying. She's honestly misguided. She's also perfectly logically consistent.
The issue is merely the fact that Faith bases any and all arguments on her interpretation of a specific version of the Bible, as we all know. That interpretation is held to be the absolute highest possible authority on all topics it possibly speaks to.
Her conclusions do in fact appear to follow from this basic assumption. She's shown herself willing and able to admit that she's wrong under the condition that the alternative to the mistaken position must also fit as well or better with her interpretation of her version of the Bible
She'll go so far as to say that any observations made can in fact be hallucinations, even her own observations, if they contradict the Bible.
There's simply no arguing such a position, because there is literally no possible argument that can disprove the Bible's authority: she'll simply say that whatever the argument is based on is wrong because the Bible is right.
There's no reason to agree with her, but it's hard, even impossible to argue with someone who will doubt her own sensory perceptions and those of every other person before she will doubt her interpretation of her authority.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 493 by PaulK, posted 11-12-2014 5:52 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 495 by Tangle, posted 11-12-2014 6:15 PM Rahvin has replied
 Message 496 by PaulK, posted 11-12-2014 6:16 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 495 of 2073 (741494)
11-12-2014 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 494 by Rahvin
11-12-2014 6:07 PM


Re: Coyotes call
Given all that - which is obviously true - why the fuck do we bother arguing with her? That's something I've been wondering about for a while.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 494 by Rahvin, posted 11-12-2014 6:07 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 498 by Rahvin, posted 11-12-2014 6:34 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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