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Author Topic:   Will you oppose to scientific conclusions if they'll lead to theology?
Electron
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 112 (184910)
02-13-2005 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by crashfrog
02-13-2005 2:28 PM


I am well aware of the use of solipsism as a device to drop arguments that embody assumptions about reality, but it can easily be escaped by using the right definitions: for example the term 'reality' must be defined in some manner, and properties of reality must not be assumed a priori.
On this basis your 'point' would seem to contain a number of assumptions as well. If you wish to maintain a monopoly on reality, I'll settle for 'accurate models that explain what I observe'

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Replies to this message:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 17 of 112 (184911)
02-13-2005 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by nator
02-13-2005 10:04 AM


Shraffy writes:
Just because we do not understand something, and may never understand it, does not mean that any supernatural means must be invoked.
Only the difference is - that these events (NDE's)are inherently supernaturalistic and not invoked. The only conclusion which seems to be plausible, is that there is life after death, as the patients are brain-dead at the time and therefore we aren't invoking anything that they aren't already claiming.
I mean come on, the best of my vivid dreams are had with a fully functioning brain, and they're lame.
So if - as you say, we will never have an answer, why do you ideologically claim that God/supernatural can't be that answer, or that it is invoked? It sounds like you just dismiss these claims because of stubborn pre-conception and atheistic inclinations.
If someone said that ligtning was because of God - then that would be invoking Goddidit. But when someone meets God how are we invoking him? Is he not already in the picture?

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christian atheist
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 112 (184921)
02-13-2005 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Electron
02-13-2005 10:50 AM


quote:
I personally like the example of how god might leave his signiature somewhere in the digits of PI. Such a discovery would convince me of a 'creator' - if the signiature were to be an unambiguous confirmation of some property known to us already (like the periodic table)
Just to add to the PI thing, if you convert PI into binary, every software that ever was and ever will be written will be found in Pi.
Not only that, every picture that ever exists and could exists is in Pi. Somewhere in the infinite digits of Pi exists a picture of Hillary Clinton being inaugurated President, Jesus taking a swim on the beach, and me making out with Britney Spears. Hard to believe, huh (especially the Britney Spears part)?
This message has been edited by christian atheist, 02-13-2005 13:44 AM

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 112 (184922)
02-13-2005 3:52 PM


Will someone remind me why any finite string of digits are necessarily contained somewhere in the decimal expansion of pi? I mean, without looking up the first million digits of pi, can someone prove that somewhere in the decimal representation there is a 5 immediately followed by a 2?

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 02-13-2005 4:32 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 20 of 112 (184925)
02-13-2005 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Chiroptera
02-13-2005 3:52 PM


Actually that combo shows up within the first 175 places.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 21 by Chiroptera, posted 02-13-2005 4:40 PM jar has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 112 (184930)
02-13-2005 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
02-13-2005 4:32 PM


Hi, jar.
Maybe, but I specifically asked for a proof that didn't involve looking up the digits, heh.
There seems to be an assertian on this thread that any finite sequence of numbers must appear in the decimal representation of pi. I have never seen a proof of this. I assume that people are saying this because they think that since pi is irrational it's decimal representation is not periodic, and then that means it must contain, somewhere, any finite sequence of digits you can think of. This is most assuredly false.
On the other hand, maybe there is something about pi itself where this is true; however, I have not seen this written anywhere.

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 Message 20 by jar, posted 02-13-2005 4:32 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 02-13-2005 4:47 PM Chiroptera has replied
 Message 23 by christian atheist, posted 02-13-2005 4:48 PM Chiroptera has not replied
 Message 24 by JonF, posted 02-13-2005 4:49 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 22 of 112 (184932)
02-13-2005 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Chiroptera
02-13-2005 4:40 PM


You know I'm too old and lazy to actually be able to come up with proof. If someone hasn't done it before me I'm in deep kimshi; originality and creativity are something only to be dreamed of.
But let's try a stupid approach that sometimes works for an old man. Maybe we'll get a chochmeh.
If roll a dice an infinte number of times will I ever get a 1?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
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christian atheist
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 112 (184933)
02-13-2005 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Chiroptera
02-13-2005 4:40 PM


To be honest, I'm not sure it's true, either. I went to a Math lecture about random numbers and I asked if the digits in Pi were random. The professor said, as far as we can tell, to whatever billion digits they were at, it seemed so.
However, who know? Maybe after the 10^1000 digits, nothing by 0's and 1's appear (but in unpredictable order). The number would still be non-periodic and still be irrational.
Does anyone with a math degree know more?
(Sorry if this is all off topic)

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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 24 of 112 (184934)
02-13-2005 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Chiroptera
02-13-2005 4:40 PM


There seems to be an assertian on this thread that any finite sequence of numbers must appear in the decimal representation of pi.
I asserted that, and I sure think I saw a proof somewhere, but I'm having a bit of trouble digging it up. In the meantime, Search the first 400 million digits of pi.

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 112 (184935)
02-13-2005 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
02-13-2005 4:47 PM


Are you assuming that the digits in pi form a truly random sequence?
Here is a nice irrational number:
5.05005000500005000005000000500000005000000005...
I can specify lots of finite sequences that never appear in this decimal expansion. but then, this sequence is not very random.
I know that sometimes people use the digits of pi to produce a sequence of random digits, but I don't think that it has been proven that pi behaves as a truly random sequence.
By the way, I see that you are an admin now. Congratulations.

This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 112 (184936)
02-13-2005 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by JonF
02-13-2005 4:49 PM


Hi, Jon.
Yes, if the digits of pi do form a truly random sequence (whatever that means) then jar's explanation would be sound -- given any finite sequence we the probability that we would find that sequence would approach 1 as we look further and further out in the expansion.
On the other hand, there may be other reasons to believe that pi contains all finite sequences even it were not truly random.

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 27 of 112 (184951)
02-13-2005 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Chiroptera
02-13-2005 4:57 PM


Well, TTBOMK no one has yet proven that any of the numbers like pi or the squareroot of 2 are random but IIRC, the folk at Lawrence berkley were making some early steps towards proving Hypothesis A. If that is ever proven then there would at least be a likelyhood of a general proof.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Chiroptera, posted 02-13-2005 6:15 PM jar has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 112 (184952)
02-13-2005 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by jar
02-13-2005 6:02 PM


Bleh.
I actually dislike number theory. I wonder if they are going to make me teach it here?

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 Message 27 by jar, posted 02-13-2005 6:02 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 29 of 112 (184954)
02-13-2005 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Chiroptera
02-13-2005 6:15 PM


Re: Bleh.
Well, before the Fall it was much easier. In the Garden of Eden there were only natural numbers. It was only after the Fall that we were cursed with complex or irrational numbers. There were not even negative numbers until the serpent looked back over where he thought his shoulder was located.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
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Maxwell's Demon
Member (Idle past 6229 days)
Posts: 59
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 30 of 112 (184961)
02-13-2005 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by JonF
02-13-2005 2:15 PM


Re: Is it?
Certainly it contains all finite strings of numbers. I'm not sure about infinite strings ... does it contain itself? Oy!
You'd think it's trivially true that it contains itself.

This message is a reply to:
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