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Author Topic:   Believing in God, But Not Literally
GreyOwl
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 59 (173419)
01-03-2005 11:46 AM


I'm not sure if anyone has read "God's Debris: A Thought Experiment", by Scott Adams (the author of the Dilbert cartoons). In it, one of the characters (it's a fictional book) makes the claim that even though most people claim to believe in God, deep down they really do not. He claims that they don't act the way someone should (or would have to) act if they truly believed in the existence of an all-powerful, supernatural being. If the belief was true deep-down to their core, then their lives should be much more focused on fulfilling the wishes of God and trying to live their lives in accordance. His claim is people say they believe because they enjoy the practical benefits of doing so (comfort, emotional support, etc.). He uses the analogy of believing in a truck that is speeding towards you. Saying you believe in the truck is one thing, but if it truly does not scare you to the point of getting out of the way, then you don't really believe in what it is and what it could do to you.
I think this would be an interesting topic to discuss. Note that I don't want to discuss whether God actually exists or not, but rather the question of whether everyone that claims to believe in God *truly believes*. I'm sure a small percentage of them actually do, with everything that encompasses. But perhaps others only believe symbolically, while others may believe in an actual God but one that differs from the traditional view. The second part of this would be to analyze why this phenomenon occurs in the first place.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-03-2005 12:45 PM GreyOwl has replied
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 Message 13 by arachnophilia, posted 01-04-2005 4:55 AM GreyOwl has not replied

  
AdminDawg
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 59 (173428)
01-03-2005 12:37 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 3 of 59 (173431)
01-03-2005 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by GreyOwl
01-03-2005 11:46 AM


I've read God's Debris, and I thought it was a very interesting read.
I think he is partly right to say that the majority of people who believe to dot act accordingly and that if they really did believe their entire life would be devoted to serving God and obeying Him. Jesus said, "if you love me, obey my commands."
He also said, "Many will come to me saying, 'Lord, Lord, we healed and cast out demons in your name', and I will say, 'away from me, you evil doers. I do not know you'" Seems like it will be the case at the end that many who believed symbolically as you say did not give their entire lives in faith. Perhaps Jesus is speaking here about the televangelists. I don't know.
If everyone who claims to be a Christian obeyed Christ's commands as best they were able, there would be no more orphans or uncared for widows or hunger crisis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by GreyOwl, posted 01-03-2005 11:46 AM GreyOwl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by GreyOwl, posted 01-03-2005 2:45 PM Hangdawg13 has replied
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GreyOwl
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 59 (173475)
01-03-2005 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Hangdawg13
01-03-2005 12:45 PM


Here's something else that goes along the same lines. Many people say they believe in God. But if someone claims that God speaks to them, most people (even some devout Christians) have the initial gut-reaction that that person is crazy. So if someone truly believes in God, why does it sound crazy that he talks to people? It seems to be another example of believing in God symbolically, but not truly believing when faced with an actual reality. Does that make sense? Any comments on that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-03-2005 12:45 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-03-2005 8:16 PM GreyOwl has replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 5 of 59 (173563)
01-03-2005 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by GreyOwl
01-03-2005 2:45 PM


This I somewhat disagree with.
If a believer automatically assumes the other person is crazy or deluded, then they assume miracles do not occur, and I wonder how much they really believe in Christ's ressurrection.
On the other hand, I have a friend who has told me of things God has shown him and said to him, and it was very odd at first. But I think this is natural. Humans just can't identify with an experience they've never had.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by GreyOwl, posted 01-03-2005 2:45 PM GreyOwl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by GreyOwl, posted 01-03-2005 9:56 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 6 of 59 (173572)
01-03-2005 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Hangdawg13
01-03-2005 12:45 PM


If everyone who claims to be a Christian obeyed Christ's commands as best they were able, there would be no more orphans or uncared for widows or hunger crisis.
Yup.'Taint what you say, 'tis what you do.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by GreyOwl, posted 01-03-2005 9:59 PM jar has replied

  
GreyOwl
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 59 (173581)
01-03-2005 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Hangdawg13
01-03-2005 8:16 PM


But that's kind of what I mean...it seems to me that it wouldn't seem odd, even at first, to someone that deeply believed. I mean, what should seem so out of place? If I believe in God, and believe he has spoken to people in the past (according to the Bible), then why would I think it strange if he also spoke to some guy I just met? If I believe that my wife exists, it wouldn't seem odd to me that she speaks to me. If I believe that my dog exists, it doesn't seem odd when she barks. Granted, this is just my opinion and obviously not a hard-fact that applies to everybody. But does anyone at least get why it seems kind of strange to me?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-03-2005 8:16 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-04-2005 12:43 PM GreyOwl has replied

  
GreyOwl
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 59 (173582)
01-03-2005 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
01-03-2005 9:19 PM


I agree it's more what you do and not what you say. But what about the people that say they believe but don't act accordingly? I don't think they're all evil, nor are they all too stupid to understand the consequences of acting the way they do. So what does that really leave? Does it make sense to say that they must not really believe as much as they say they do, as the character in the book implies?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 01-03-2005 9:19 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 01-03-2005 10:12 PM GreyOwl has replied
 Message 18 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-04-2005 12:49 PM GreyOwl has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 9 of 59 (173587)
01-03-2005 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by GreyOwl
01-03-2005 9:59 PM


But what about the people that say they believe but don't act accordingly?
It all depends on who they are and what they do. They can be pretty normal Christians, very bad Christians or evil Christians.
None of us do enough, but as shown in Matthew 25, not a whole lot is expected. But then there are very evil Christians that do great harm. The worst IMHO are those that are leaders in the Christian Church, the Pat Roberstons, Oral Roberts, Jim Bakkers, Jerry Falwells, Jimmy Swaggarts, Gene Scotts, Bob Larsons, Robert Tiltons and other similar CHRISTIANS. Such folk make an abomnation of Christian Theology by preaching behavior that that is anti-Christ.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by GreyOwl, posted 01-03-2005 9:59 PM GreyOwl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by TrueCreation, posted 01-03-2005 10:38 PM jar has not replied
 Message 14 by GreyOwl, posted 01-04-2005 10:35 AM jar has replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 59 (173600)
01-03-2005 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
01-03-2005 10:12 PM


Bob Larson? I have been to one or two of his "sermon's"...interesting to say the least. My father actually got pretty into him, reading his books and doing general research in the topics he discusses and acts on.
Ultimately I don't know whether it is real/semi-real, staged, or psychological(some pretty freaky stuff happens..). But I am pretty sure it is the latter.
This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 01-03-2005 22:39 AM

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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 11 of 59 (173617)
01-03-2005 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by TrueCreation
01-03-2005 10:38 PM


The guy is a crackpot. A good self-promoter, but a crackpot.

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 12 of 59 (173637)
01-04-2005 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by GreyOwl
01-03-2005 11:46 AM


Oh Ye of Little Faith.....Join the Club!
GreyOwl writes:
...even though most people claim to believe in God, deep down they really do not. ...they don't act the way someone should (or would have to) act if they truly believed in the existence of an all-powerful, supernatural being. If the belief was true deep-down to their core, then their lives should be much more focused on fulfilling the wishes of God and trying to live their lives in accordance...people say they believe because they enjoy the practical benefits of doing so (comfort, emotional support, etc.).the question is whether everyone that claims to believe in God truly believes!. I'm sure a small percentage of (believers) actually do, with everything that encompasses. But perhaps others only believe symbolically, while others may believe in an actual God but one that differs from the traditional view. Analyze why this phenomenon occurs in the first place.(edit by PB)
For one thing, many believe only what they have been told. The faith within them has not been tested. Most of us follow our human nature of comfort and convenience. We willingly gave Him our entire soul, and then have consciously or subconsciously resisted letting go.
Some of us have been hurt by organized religion and hesitate to trust what we can't quantify or control. I question how much we are responsible for letting go ... or holding on!
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-03-2005 22:48 AM

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 13 of 59 (173671)
01-04-2005 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by GreyOwl
01-03-2005 11:46 AM


He claims that they don't act the way someone should (or would have to) act if they truly believed in the existence of an all-powerful, supernatural being. If the belief was true deep-down to their core, then their lives should be much more focused on fulfilling the wishes of God and trying to live their lives in accordance
no no no. that's all wrong. see, there's a major problem. there are TWO characters in the story.
GOD: all powerful, all knowing, ever present, and super pissed. but he loves you, and forgives you for everything you do.
THE DEVIL: not as powerful or smart as god, but still pissed. only he doesn't love you and doesn't forgive you, he tortures you for eternity.
which is the one we should be trying to make happy?
(maybe everyone does this subconciously, but apparently there's a tribe in africa that conciously took this approach when christianity was presented to them by missionaries. or so i hear)
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 01-04-2005 04:56 AM

This message is a reply to:
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GreyOwl
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 59 (173725)
01-04-2005 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
01-03-2005 10:12 PM


jar, I guess I should clarify my question. When I asked "But what about the people that say they believe but don't act accordingly?", I didn't mean judge or ask whether they were "good" or "bad". I personally don't think that a belief vs. non-belief in God determines whether one is good or not, nor do I think that being religious has anything to do with it.
I'm interested more in the psychology of the human mind as to why someone thinks they believe something that they really don't, or thinks they believe it more than they actually do. This phenomenon has nothing to do with whether a person is good or bad, nor is it even a purely Christian phenomenon. I just think that if a purely symbolic belief still helps someone get through life, what is the harm in them admitting that their belief is symbolic rather than actual?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 01-03-2005 10:12 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 01-04-2005 10:43 AM GreyOwl has replied
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 01-04-2005 12:53 PM GreyOwl has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 59 (173729)
01-04-2005 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by GreyOwl
01-04-2005 10:35 AM


Still not at all sure what you're asking. That's not all that unuaual, I'm old and slow.
I just think that if a purely symbolic belief still helps someone get through life, what is the harm in them admitting that their belief is symbolic rather than actual?
What is a symbolic belief? Is it "I believe but not really?" Can one conciously hold onto a belief in something one doesn't believe in?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by GreyOwl, posted 01-04-2005 10:35 AM GreyOwl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by GreyOwl, posted 01-04-2005 11:50 AM jar has replied

  
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