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Author Topic:   REAL Flood Geology
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 46 of 137 (365283)
11-22-2006 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by RAZD
11-21-2006 8:55 PM


Re: Magic Water
What do YECs say about the height of antediluvian mountains? Were the Himalayas covered? Or were the Himalayas raised as part of the upheaval?
The first choice requires an impressive amount of water indeed. You'd think that today we'd at least have to deal with the runaway mildew.
The second choice requires the raising of the Himalayas in a matter of centuries (presumably by having the Indian plate smack into the Asian plate at supersonic speed) without disturbing any of those people in the Indus Valley who were growing their crops, sailing the rivers, and learning to write.
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Added mildew.

Archer
All species are transitional.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 47 of 137 (365284)
11-22-2006 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Archer Opteryx
11-22-2006 12:38 AM


Re: Magic Water
The second choice requires the raising of the Himalayas in a matter of centuries (presumably by having the Indian plate smack into the Asian plate at supersonic speed) without disturbing any of those people in the Indus Valley who were growing their crops, sailing the rivers, and learning to write.
There were no people in the Indus valley at that time. They all drowned in the alleged flood, and Noah's descendent's hadn't spread that far abroad by the time of the great upheaval

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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 48 of 137 (365285)
11-22-2006 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by nwr
11-22-2006 12:43 AM


Re: Magic Water
nwr:
There were no people in the Indus valley at that time. They all drowned in the alleged flood, and Noah's descendent's hadn't spread that far abroad by the time of the great upheaval
Well, that clears that up.
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : face.

Archer
All species are transitional.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 49 of 137 (365323)
11-22-2006 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Archer Opteryx
11-22-2006 12:38 AM


Re: Magic Water
The second choice requires the raising of the Himalayas in a matter of centuries ...
The third choice is that the density of the earth was magically modified so that the now magic water found a new equilbrium, covering all the land mass to a depth of at least 22 feet, thus if flowed up and covered the mountains.
No change in tectonics required, also no movement of continents required, just magic paths like moses had, to get animals to continents when the waters receeded by reversal of the magic gravity.
Still doesn't solve la Brea, but that doesn't matter if it solves ONE problem right?
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
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PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 50 of 137 (365345)
11-22-2006 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by RAZD
11-22-2006 7:39 AM


Re: Magic Water
Still doesn't solve la Brea, but that doesn't matter if it solves ONE problem right?
Sure it does.
Greasy or oily surfaces tend to make water roll of to the sides don't they. Just like after you wax your car then spray it with a hose. You nice even film of water ends up with big puckers in it.
If you change gravity, water density and a few other physical constants enough to allow water to flow up the sides of mountains then it isn't too hard to image 20 foot deep pucker zones around the tar pits is it?
It even explains why so many animals fell into the things since they were the only spots on the planet that weren't submerged.
And of course we all know that mammals can swim while dinosaurs just sank so thats why no dinos ever fell into them.

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 51 of 137 (365368)
11-22-2006 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Archer Opteryx
11-20-2006 5:08 AM


Common Worldwide Layer
Since all mountains were covered wouldn't you expect to find a consistent upper deposition layer that could be tracked all around the world? The lower layers maybe be mixed and complex due to local flooding from the rising waters as lakes and seas broke over their local impoundments. But after the waters rose to cover all of earth and the entrained sentiment dispersed you would expect to see a layer of similar material all over globe. Since only a few thousand years has passed this layer would be close to the top.
Also wouldn't one expect to find this layer at the ice caps? Oh wait why didn't the ice caps just float away since ice is lighter than water.
Conversely Joman in post 8 listed this item.
Joman writes:
12. Large deposits of extreme purity.
It would seem to me that would be the last thing you would expect. Purity would require an isolated system. A world wide flood would mix, stir and disperse.
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

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Joman
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 137 (365437)
11-22-2006 3:02 PM


The complexity and diversity of the vast array of geological formations and the equally diverse and complex scenario's that produced them found is what a global flood would produce. A global flood wouldn't produce a global uniformity of sedimentation any more than a global atmosphere would produce a uniform global climate pattern.
The flood stage would effect geography in ways utterly different than the abating period would.
Diversity of flood stories is expected from the ramifications of such diverse cultural pressures over lengthy time periods. The pertinent fact is that the existence of such stories in all languages reveals that a flood occurred which impacted all peoples. It surely seems unreasonable to find flood stories and not fire stories expect that there was indeed a huge flood whilst there never was a global fire.
Joman.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 53 of 137 (365458)
11-22-2006 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Joman
11-22-2006 3:02 PM


Joman writes:
Diversity of flood stories is expected from the ramifications of such diverse cultural pressures over lengthy time periods.
So, how do you pick which of those flood stories is the accurate one? What is it about the Bible version that uniquely predicts what we see in the geological record today?

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anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 54 of 137 (365479)
11-22-2006 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Joman
11-22-2006 3:02 PM


HOW?
Joman asserts:
The complexity and diversity of the vast array of geological formations and the equally diverse and complex scenario's that produced them found is what a global flood would produce. A global flood wouldn't produce a global uniformity of sedimentation any more than a global atmosphere would produce a uniform global climate pattern.
The flood stage would effect geography in ways utterly different than the abating period would.
How would a global flood, which creates the same depositional environment worldwide, produce different sedimentary rock types? Remember, if you can't answer how this would work, it means it is unexplainable and therefore likely untrue. All you are saying is no it doesn't without saying why or how.
The atmosphere is not made of water so it does not act like a fluid, it acts like a gas. Therefore deposition of sediment in water is not the same as "wind" or "rain." The power you ascribe to water to reshape solids in such a short timescale has never been observed. Please feel free to overturn physics with any evidence you have to the contrary.
Take a clear glass or other similar container, get a shovelful of dirt out of the yard, mix it with water, stir thouroughly, and let it set for a week. The soil should be sorted, just like a global flood would do after the waters receeded, in one global layer. A global layer that no one has ever found despite the thousands of boreholes drilled into the Earth at virtually all locations.
Explain how a global flood created angular unconformities, multiple evaporite layers, and delicate thin interbedded sediments like the Castile Formation in West Texas. If you can sucessfully do this without resorting to ... and then a miracle happened, you will be the first YEC in history to do so.
I will take it that no future explanation means you dont know what you are talking about. For your information, it is called geoscience to those who actually study such phenomena with the goal of understanding, as opposed to mere unsubstantiated pronouncement.
Edited by anglagard, : clarity.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 55 of 137 (365487)
11-22-2006 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Joman
11-22-2006 3:02 PM


The complexity and diversity of the vast array of geological formations and the equally diverse and complex scenario's that produced them found is what a global flood would produce.
This is reverse circular reasoning.
All you have done is first (1) assumed the flood happened and then (2) concluded that what we see is due to the flood, and finally (3) asserted that what we see is therefore evidence of the flood.
This does not show why your assertion can be so.
... any more than a global atmosphere would produce a uniform global climate pattern.
And yet there IS evidence of global climate patterns in tree rings and other annual growth systems that show similar patterns whether on the top of the Sierra Nevadas or surrounding the peat bogs of Europe or growing in a lake in Japan.
Therefore there should be similar evidence from a flood - based on your assertion.
Enjoy.

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 56 of 137 (365489)
11-22-2006 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Joman
11-22-2006 3:02 PM


The pertinent fact is that the existence of such stories in all languages reveals that a flood occurred which impacted all peoples.
The "flood occurred which impacted all peoples". Yes, but the impact was that they were supposedly drowned - not very good for passing down oral myths.
It surely seems unreasonable to find flood stories and not fire stories expect that there was indeed a huge flood whilst there never was a global fire.
There are numerous flood stories (actually not as many is often thought) because as early human transition from hunter-gatherer to agriculture they settle close to the rich land near rivers which unfortunately is also a flood zone.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 57 of 137 (365495)
11-22-2006 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by PurpleYouko
11-22-2006 9:15 AM


Re: Magic Water
Greasy or oily surfaces tend to make water roll of to the sides don't they. Just like after you wax your car then spray it with a hose. You nice even film of water ends up with big puckers in it.
But not 22 feet deep. There is no evidence of this kind of behavior in any oil spill or seep.
If you change gravity, water density and a few other physical constants enough to allow water to flow up the sides of mountains ...
I'm not changing gravity or any other constants.
Just the direction of gravity: it would be the same everywhere with no gradient that causes streams to flow downhill - rather than the globe being a perfect sphere, gravity is perpendicular to the surface. Thus even though it is shaped as now, topologically from the view of gravity it is a sphere.
Normal "downhill" is because perpendicular to the slope does not go in the direction of gravity: in "magic water time" the direction of gravity is everywhere perpendicular to the surface of the earth.
The same kind of control over the direction of gravity could cause the parting of the red sea, thus we have congruity in two events with the same (supernatural) cause.
It even explains why so many animals fell into the things since they were the only spots on the planet that weren't submerged.
Again, going on experience with oil spills and seeps from the deep, oil floats up to the surface, even when congealed into tar like material. The surface would be slightly higher if anything: crude oil has a specific gravity that varies from 0.790 to 0.873 (anything below 1.0 floats, everything over 1.0 sinks - compared to fresh water, salt water today has a specific gravity of 1.025).
Pure tar has a specific gravity of 1.153, so it should sink - if it was pure. BUT what we see with oil spills and seeps is that it gets emulsified with water before forming tar like globs and gets mixed with froth and air bubbles when on the surface.
And of course we all know that mammals can swim while dinosaurs just sank ...
What? How do we know that dinosaurs couldn't swim just as well as mammals - many even had hollow bones, so they should be LESS dense than mammals. Some were known to be aquatic and some were shore dwellers (duck-billed dinos) that were adapted to semi-aquatic habitat with nostrils at the tops of their skulls.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 58 of 137 (365496)
11-22-2006 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by PurpleYouko
11-22-2006 9:15 AM


Re: Magic Tar
... then it isn't too hard to image 20 foot deep pucker zones around the tar pits is it?
Of course we have another problem with oil and tar deposits: according to the creationist model these were formed FROM organic material buried by the flood:
The page you requested cannot be found!
quote:
Coal and oil are found sandwiched between sedimentary rock layers. Sedimentary rock layers are basically layers of dried out mud. This means that all the layers, including the layers of coal and oil, were laid down primarily by the action of water in a flood. In addition, almost all coal and oil is derived from vegetation.
Coal (charred animal remains) and oil produced from animal remains contains nitrogen products that are not found in oil that comes from vegetable materials. Thus, it is easy to tell one type of deposit from the other.
Thus we have the vegetation being trapped by the flood, instantly converted into tar, then mixed again to trap the animals that DON'T get converted into coal oil or tar.
Aside from the problem of taking organic material that is fairly solid, that sinks, is buried under mud and then transformed by pressure to be compressed into a liquid that is ...
... lighter than water.
(Do I need to mention that animals get their nitrogen from vegetable matter ... btw?)
Enjoy

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obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 59 of 137 (365515)
11-22-2006 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Joman
11-22-2006 3:02 PM


quote:
The pertinent fact is that the existence of such stories in all languages reveals that a flood occurred which impacted all peoples.
The pertinent fact is that the myraid of flood stories from around the world do not share common themes. Very few of them agree on anything besides that there was water. They disagree on the reason for the flood, the timeframe, the actual damage caused, the location and the size. Creationists would fallaciously like us to think that all of the flood stories are similar when they are indeed nothing of the sort.
How could one flood have affected so many people and spawned so many completely different accounts?
For instance, several of the Chinese flood stories revolve around the Yellow river, while nothing was affected further North. That's kind of a big hole in your argument isn't it?

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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 60 of 137 (365520)
11-22-2006 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Archer Opteryx
11-20-2006 5:08 AM


Lack of topic focus!!!
message 1 writes:
How would the earth look today if there had been a global catastrophic flood circa 4,500-5,000 years ago?
"Bolding" is in original message.
I think a fundimental point is to first state the nature of the Earth's geology and topography prior to the flood. I would suggest that we look at the Earth from the "old" perspective.
The above quoted seems to imply the premise that the "global catastrophic flood" never actually happened. Thus there are now no affects of said flood.
I also think that we should not speculate on the causes of said flood, other that that it was the will of God and that s/he somehow produced and later disposed of the water (IT WAS SOME SORT OF MIRACLE!!!). One thing that is pretty clear from the Bible, is that it rained for 40 days - I think we can presume A LOT OF RAIN.
So think about this. I'm going to close the topic for a while, in about 10 minutes.
Adminnemooseus

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