the forgery of deuteronomy

in the bible, in the book of kings, a scroll comes to the attention of king josiah, who reforms the church and state to fit its precepts. these include limiting worship to one specific place (the temple in jerusalem) and destorying all sorts of things that could be idols (including the bronze serpent made by moses). it is clear by the reformations josiah makes, and the textual links, that he's reading deuteronomy. it is also clear that book of kings passes judgement on every king mentioned according to the standards set forth in the book of deuteronomy. because the israelites (northern kingdom) have split from the judeans (southern kingdom) and have erected their own places of worship starting with jeroboam, every northern king is judged as sinful.between two newly separated countries, it becomes increasingly obvious that these books have political motivation. and so when the priest find the scroll of deutoronomy, which validates their judgement of the north, it's all too convenient.deuteronomy also says a few suspicious things. the name for the book comes from this passage:

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And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of [that which is] before the priests the Levites:

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copy of the law, or second law, in greek is "deuteronomy." it's the first time that hebrews have mention of a kingdom or throne in the bible. the book also contains the first (only?) mention that god can only be worshipped in one place. this means that people before the time of josiah didn't know about the text at all -- the system of provincial judges instead of kings, multiple temples -- all indicate no prior knowledge of the text. it also makes sure to mention the golden calf -- something duplicated by jeroboam.so, the question is: is deutoronomy a forgery from the time of josiah, designed to malign the north?and if so, does this affect its role in the bible, or its meaning?

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

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Originally posted by Arachnophilia

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(including the bronze serpent made by moses).

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Hi Arachnophilia,I'm sorry, I don't mean it to appear that I'm picking on you; especially since I'm a complete space-cadet about half the time. But I do see now where your thoughts got crossed. Though the "book of the law" was found during the reign of Josiah it was, ironically, your earlier referenced king Hezekiah who beat to bits the bronze serpent (II Kings 18:4).Just in the interest of accuracy,Amlodhi

i see, that must have been it. i'm a little behind on my reading, and it was just an idea i came across. probably should have studied it a bit more before posting.

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Originally posted by Arachnophilia

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. . . these books have political motivation. and so when the priest finds the scroll of deutoronomy, which validates their judgement of the north, it's all too convenient.

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. . . it was just an idea i came across. probably should have studied it a bit more before posting.

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The idea is fine. And, IMO, your assessment is spot on.Amlodhi

That is a speculation I have had. Very political. So, I suspect that
your speculation is right on the money when it comes to the Torah
was introduced to the hebrews.Amazing, it confirmed the families of the priests of the time were confirmed by God to be the priests. (well doh).

Your thoughts on Deuteronomy are along the same lines as I have been bringing out on Leviticus. In the "Jesus wasn't a Sacrifice to Forgive Sins" thread.IMO Leviticus was written after Deuteronomy. Neither was written in the desert by Moses. I do think that orals stories were passed down through the years, but I don't think they remained unchanged.I found this site today, which goes along with what we are thinking.
Who Wrote the Bible?

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

well, if deuteronomy was written during the reign of josiah, i think the levite traditions were already established by then, so it might be other way around.but i'm nowhere close to sure on either (especially not on leviticus) so i could be wrong. either way, it's just a quibble.i don't think moses wrote either book.

The Pentateuch consists of the first five books of the OT which include: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. There are 4 authors of the Pentateuch which include: Yahwehist, Elohim, Deuteromistic, and Priestly writers. Each set of authors is more than one, thus you have at least eight writers, possibly more. Though the Pentateuch is declared by some to be the writings of Moses, it is proven as false. First of all, Moses died, and the story continues in the Pentateuch. He can't write the story if he is deceased. Maybe that will clear up some of the confussion. Now I want to respond to the original question:

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is deutoronomy a forgery from the time of josiah, designed to malign the north?

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and if so, does this affect its role in the bible, or its meaning?

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That happens to be an unanswerable question, if you are wanting a concrete factual answer. My oppinion on it would be this: No it is not a forgery, though I find it to have errors, as is with the rest of the OT which happens to have errors. It should not affect the role of the bible, or it's meaning, to any Christian, simply because though I would never say that the OT is not important, but we live by the NT. In other words, we do not make sacrifices, we do not make our priests wear certain garments, some of us eat pork, etc.. My point is simply that it wouldn't, or shouldn't, change the way we believe, because we do not practice the OT.

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Angel

we do so very much live by the OT.When Jesus taught from the scriptures in the temple, which one's do you think he used?When Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments -- do you think he meant the ten found in Exodus?Which part of the OT does not apply to us any longer?There is a basic plan throughout all of scripture, from Alpha to Omega, and that is the plan of salvation, which some followed and some did not. All of the Bible is examples of either one or the other.

Hi PecosGeorge,Unless you are an Israelite, you can't be serious. God chose the Israelites to be His children, and gave them Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai. The Old Testament laws were there to be obeyed by the Israelites only, not by Gentiles. God chose Israel alone as His children and gave them His law. Nowhere in the Bible will we find Gentiles obeying God's law before the death of Jesus Christ, for instance observing the Sabbath, blood sacrifice (for God), etc. The way Jesus fulfilled the prophets is the same way He used to fulfill the law. You may think that Jesus came to continue the Old Testament Law or that he came to add some laws to the old one. But that isn't so.

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Matthew 5.17-18 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall an no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

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Pleroo is the Greek word for fulfill meaning "to come true." To fulfill never means to add or continue.

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Webster: fulfill- to carry out a promise, to do a duty, to satisfy a condition, to bring to an end, to complete.

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Jesus came to fulfill, or to bring to an end, the promises and prophecies concerning Him in the Law and in the Prophets. The Law that Jesus spoke of is not just the Ten Commandments, but the Pentateuch.Christians today are not bound to obey the laws or observe the rituals and practices of Old Testament religion. The Old Testament covenant was made between God and Israel, and it never included Gentiles.

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Exodus 34:27 "And the Lord said unto Moses, write thou these words; for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and Israel."

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Gentiles are not included.The Prophets acknowledged that the old covenant was broken and destroyed by the Israelites themselves, so God promised a new and spiritual covenant which is the New Testament.

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Jeremiah 31:31-34."Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that l will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the Land of Egypt; which my covenant they break; although I was a husband unto them, saith the Lord, But this shall be the covenant that l will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying know the Lord; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord; for l will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

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Angel

well i was looking for either opinions or more information. the information i've seen strongly suggests that it is a forgery, but it's not impossible for it to be legit. i'm not entirely sure i agree, but i guess i'll come back to it. j,e,d,p. you forgot h, the holiness code (levitical authors). also, this is only my thought, but i think the places where god is called "el" or "el shaddai" are probably by a separate set of authors. they would probably fragments of the oldest form of judaism.it's also arguable that joshua should be included, based on style.i guess the more formal rendering of my question is "did the deuteronomist(s) write much later than previously thought?"

that logic doesn't actually hold up, because people are now allowed to become jewish. but something very similar does hold up:the ten commandment are not commandments, per se. they are terms of an agreement. it's a form ancient form of treaty, called a suzeranty treaty. the suzeran (god) is the more powerful individual/country, and applies its terms to the weaker power (israel).these agreements open with a statement "because i did this, you have to do this for me"in other words, the ten commandments don't even apply unless god brought your family out of egypt.

First chance I get, I'll steal all your money.I'm an Isrealite, a Jew is not someone outwardly, but Israelite/Jew is something inwardly.How interesting that you would think no gentile obeyed God's law. There are too many to name, let's try Ruth, one of Christ's ancestors - let's try Caleb, one of Joshua's helpers, let's try all the non-Jews who followed Moses out of Egypt.The ten commandments are the only indication you have of God's character - if you love me, Jesus said, keep my commandments. He came to fulfill it, not to destroy it, not to make it void. The ten have as much sway over you as they have over all creation at all times. It is they that point out sin, without the law, there is no sin, and that also in the secular world.

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How interesting that you would think no gentile obeyed God's law. There are too many to name, let's try Ruth, one of Christ's ancestors - let's try Caleb, one of Joshua's helpers, let's try all the non-Jews who followed Moses out of Egypt.

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Didn't that make them an Israelite??? I didn't say Jewish, I said Israelite. Yes, in this case, there is a major difference.

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He came to fulfill it, not to destroy it, not to make it void.

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And He did just that....He fulfilled it.

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Angel