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Author Topic:   Did the belief in evolution ever accomplish good?
techristian
Member (Idle past 4103 days)
Posts: 60
Joined: 04-03-2002


Message 1 of 29 (8820)
04-22-2002 11:20 PM


Did evolution doctrine ever do anything good to cure sickness, or abolish world hunger or anything good at all?
I know that a belief in evolution has led some individuals to live like animals in wild sex orgies and others to to treat "less evolved" races as slaves. I also know that a belief system such as evolution , void of a belief in the wrath of God, makes it easy to commit murder and other crimes. But has it ever done any good?
Dan
http://musicinit.com/pvideos.html

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Joe Meert, posted 04-22-2002 11:28 PM techristian has replied
 Message 6 by Mister Pamboli, posted 04-23-2002 2:15 AM techristian has not replied
 Message 9 by Brad McFall, posted 04-28-2002 5:40 PM techristian has not replied
 Message 10 by Percy, posted 04-28-2002 10:40 PM techristian has not replied
 Message 12 by TrueCreation, posted 04-29-2002 8:32 PM techristian has not replied
 Message 17 by mark24, posted 05-01-2002 9:54 PM techristian has not replied
 Message 22 by nator, posted 05-02-2002 11:26 AM techristian has not replied
 Message 24 by Peter, posted 05-03-2002 5:37 AM techristian has not replied

  
Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 5680 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 2 of 29 (8821)
04-22-2002 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by techristian
04-22-2002 11:20 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by techristian:
[B]Did evolution doctrine ever do anything good to cure sickness, or abolish world hunger or anything good at all?
I know that a belief in evolution has led some individuals to live like animals in wild sex orgies and others to to treat "less evolved" races as slaves. I also know that a belief system such as evolution , void of a belief in the wrath of God, makes it easy to commit murder and other crimes. But has it ever done any good? [/QUOTE]
JM: YOu know, it's this kind of crappy post that gives many of us the impression that creationists are a bunch of fools. It's surely not true as many try hard to post reasoned arguments. For all his faults, TC at least tries to look up information. This garbage that you post has no relevance to the debate. Nevertheless, for the billionth time, you are probably alive today because of evolutionary science. Genetic engineering (based on evolution) is working to cure world hunger. Sickness is of course cured by medical advances which constantly have to stay ahead of mutations and evolution of the bugs it is fighting. Slavery and racism is as rooted in the Bible and religion as it is in anything else. When you resort to such nonsense, it only belittles your own argument.
Cheers
Joe Meert
PS: note to self, ignore techchristian, methinks he is a weasel
<
[This message has been edited by Joe Meert, 04-22-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by techristian, posted 04-22-2002 11:20 PM techristian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by techristian, posted 04-22-2002 11:58 PM Joe Meert has not replied

  
techristian
Member (Idle past 4103 days)
Posts: 60
Joined: 04-03-2002


Message 3 of 29 (8824)
04-22-2002 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Joe Meert
04-22-2002 11:28 PM


Genetic engineering (based on evolution) is working to cure world hunger.
If you say, but the first time that I suggested that the bones of "Lucy" (missing link) be checked for DNA I was promptly told that there wouldn't be enough DNA in them old bones. Genetic engineering has nothing to do with THE BELIEF of evolution.
Sickness is of course cured by medical advances which constantly have to stay ahead of mutations and evolution of the bugs it is fighting.
So you believe, but what good does THE BELIEF of evolution do to help? So what if there are new diseases? There have always been new diseases. Advances in medicine are in part due to new technological tools and anatomical study, but not a the belief of evolution.
Slavery and racism is as rooted in the Bible and religion as it is in anything else.
Joe can you quote a bible verse to prove this?
Dan
http://musicinit.com/music.html

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Joe Meert, posted 04-22-2002 11:28 PM Joe Meert has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by compmage, posted 04-23-2002 1:56 AM techristian has not replied
 Message 7 by Mister Pamboli, posted 04-23-2002 2:36 AM techristian has not replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 5 of 29 (8825)
04-23-2002 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by techristian
04-22-2002 11:58 PM


quote:
Originally posted by techristian:

If you say, but the first time that I suggested that the bones of "Lucy" (missing link) be checked for DNA I was promptly told that there wouldn't be enough DNA in them old bones. Genetic engineering has nothing to do with THE BELIEF of evolution.

Your right. Genetic engineering has nothing to do with "the belief" in evolution. I have yet to meet, hear about, or read about a genetic engeneer who "believes" in evolution. I do however know of plenty who think that evolution is the theory that best fits the evidence.
quote:
Originally posted by techristian:

So you believe, but what good does THE BELIEF of evolution do to help? So what if there are new diseases? There have always been new diseases. Advances in medicine are in part due to new technological tools and anatomical study, but not a the belief of evolution.

See above. Evolution is not a belief.
------------------
compmage

This message is a reply to:
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Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7577 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 6 of 29 (8826)
04-23-2002 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by techristian
04-22-2002 11:20 PM


quote:
Originally posted by techristian:
Did evolution doctrine ever do anything good to cure sickness, or abolish world hunger or anything good at all?
Animal testing in medical research. You can't extrapolate from one species to another unless you believe they are related and you believe you understand the nature of the relationship. If each species is a special creation then it would make no sense to experiment on any species other than humans.[b] [QUOTE]I know that a belief in evolution has led some individuals to live like animals in wild sex orgies[/b][/QUOTE]
I wish I knew some! (Joking, if Pambolito is reading this! Don't tell Mum.)[b] [QUOTE]and others to to treat "less evolved" races as slaves.[/b][/QUOTE]
Well treating other races as slaves hardly needs evolution to support it. The ancient Hebrews were well into that practice, after all.[b] [QUOTE]I also know that a belief system such as evolution , void of a belief in the wrath of God, makes it easy to commit murder and other crimes.[/b][/QUOTE]
Christians don't seem to find it too difficult either, do they?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by techristian, posted 04-22-2002 11:20 PM techristian has not replied

  
Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7577 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 7 of 29 (8828)
04-23-2002 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by techristian
04-22-2002 11:58 PM


quote:
Originally posted by techristian:
Slavery and racism is as rooted in the Bible and religion as it is in anything else.
Joe can you quote a bible verse to prove this?

Slavery is found throughout the bible and fellow countrymen are to be treated differently from foreign slaves in terms of their bondage:
Leviticus 25
39 And if thy brother that dwelleth by thee be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee; thou shalt not compel him to serve as a bondservant:
40 But as an hired servant, and as a sojourner, he shall be with thee, and shall serve thee unto the year of jubile.
41 And then shall he depart from thee, both he and his children with him, and shall return unto his own family, and unto the possession of his fathers shall he return.
42 For they are my servants, which I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: they shall not be sold as bondmen.
...
45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
Slavery and racial discrimination in one chapter!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by techristian, posted 04-22-2002 11:58 PM techristian has not replied

  
techristian
Member (Idle past 4103 days)
Posts: 60
Joined: 04-03-2002


Message 8 of 29 (9079)
04-28-2002 4:47 PM


Quotes from Mister Pamboli
Animal testing in medical research. You can't extrapolate from one species to another unless you believe they are related and you believe you understand the nature of the relationship.
Yes I can see that we have much in common with RATS! Rats are the used the most in labs these days. Yes I can see that mankind has done very deep analysis of RAT/human similarities and came up with rats as a likely choice for developing medicine and antibiotics. NOT !
Slavery is found throughout the bible and fellow countrymen are to be treated differently from foreign slaves in terms of their bondage:
Israel was enslaved by the Egyptians true, but the "slavery" from most of the bible as you quoted was different. If I owed you a large sum of money, I could become your "servant" to pay off the debt. Slavery is only one example that I mentioned earlier. I only mentioned that without a faith in God we could try to get away with anything. (As long as no one was watching such as authorities, our wives etc.) Speaking of laws, where do you think our current legal system comes from?
Dan
http://musicinit.com/

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Mister Pamboli, posted 04-29-2002 12:37 AM techristian has not replied
 Message 25 by RedVento, posted 05-07-2002 4:58 PM techristian has not replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 9 of 29 (9082)
04-28-2002 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by techristian
04-22-2002 11:20 PM


I may be corrected but I think that plant and animal breeding have benefited from the construction of (micro)evolution that may have been supported at least in some humanistic sense by long period of time uniformally thinking^NEON infrastruture if approved to the 100million level $ will surely change the way even the history of this is discussed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by techristian, posted 04-22-2002 11:20 PM techristian has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 10 of 29 (9085)
04-28-2002 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by techristian
04-22-2002 11:20 PM


Nuclear bombs have never done anything to cure sickness or abolish world hunger, and the fatalism induced by the nuclear threat has induced many to live like animals in wild sex orgies. (Why didn't I think of lecturing my dates on the finer details of evolution back when I was single?
)
Because of the evil perpetrated by nuclear bombs, I have decided not to believe in them.
Techristian, as people have been telling you, the scientific value of a theory is not measured on a moralistic scale. Even if belief in evolution had brought about total moralistic collapse worldwide, it wouldn't make the theory any less true.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by techristian, posted 04-22-2002 11:20 PM techristian has not replied

  
Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7577 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 11 of 29 (9093)
04-29-2002 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by techristian
04-28-2002 4:47 PM


quote:
Originally posted by techristian:
Yes I can see that we have much in common with RATS! Rats are the used the most in labs these days. Yes I can see that mankind has done very deep analysis of RAT/human similarities and came up with rats as a likely choice for developing medicine and antibiotics. NOT !
Actually you were pretty much right until the last word. We do share some important metabolic and physiological traits with rats thanks to our common ancestry and these similarities are the basis of many experiments.
It is naturally important for the differences as well as the similarities to be borne in mind, which is one of the reasons I oppose a lot of animal testing, especially of items such as cosmetics and household solvents. Nevertheless, rats do have great similarities which can be used very effectively. For example, gene therapy has proven highly effective in treating rats with parkinson's disease. The rats have been treated with genes which code for enzymes necessary for the production of L-Dopa. The results have been very exciting improvements in the rats' motility. Now here is the important point - Parkinson's related motility problems in humans are also due to lack fo L-dopa, the same genes in humans and rats encode for the production of L-dopa, and the same vectors can be used to deliver the payload of genes. Sadly, these results probably won't lead to effective therapy in time to help my own father, but I am very grateful for our genetic relationship to rats and the hope it will bring to others.
[b] [QUOTE]Israel was enslaved by the Egyptians true, but the "slavery" from most of the bible as you quoted was different.[/b][/QUOTE]
Oh don't try to wriggle out of it. Joe said slavery was rife in the Bible, you said show us a verse, I did, and now you are playing the old fundamentalist "special meanings" game. Deeply unconvincing. What kind of slavery was to be imposed on those women and children captured in warfare? (Deuteronomy 20) Or on those who could be bought from surrounding tribes (Leviticus 25) - and remember these latter could not redeem themselves from bondage because they were not bound by debt. Try again, te.[b] [QUOTE]I only mentioned that without a faith in God we could try to get away with anything. (As long as no one was watching such as authorities, our wives etc.)[/b][/QUOTE]
Firstly you didn't only mention that without faith anything goes - you specifically claimed that "a belief in evolution has led some individuals to live like animals." This is not a passive statement that lack of faith can lead to wrongdoing, but a postive and totally unsubstantiated statement that a specific belief has led to a particular form of behaviour. Again, don't try and wriggle out of it with weasel phrases words like "I only said ..."
BTW, I note you have done nothing to address the multitude of horrors committed by those driven by a belief in God or Christ. Whadya make of them - do they undermine the validity of christianity?
You are right in one sense. The late, flamboyant, homosexual Quentin Crisp, memorably said that people were so much more tolerant during the war, because they feared God might be watching them. But, belief in God or Gods is by no means necessary to a moral life and there are so many counterexamples of those who clearly believed in God, but did not behave morally, that the value of belief as a moral instrument, even as a rhetorical stance, seems very little.
[b] [QUOTE]Speaking of laws, where do you think our current legal system comes from?[/b][/QUOTE]
Well a helluva lot of it comes from ancient Roman and Greek models which were not conspicuously Christian. Why else do you think our law courts look so much like Roman or Greek temples, and not like churches?
[This message has been edited by Mister Pamboli, 04-29-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by techristian, posted 04-28-2002 4:47 PM techristian has not replied

Replies to this message:
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TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 29 (9124)
04-29-2002 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by techristian
04-22-2002 11:20 PM


"Did evolution doctrine ever do anything good to cure sickness, or abolish world hunger or anything good at all?"
--I don't think I'm going to take the time to comment on your second segment....however I am not sure about the theory of evolution by common descent throughout Earth history has done so. Though the fact that specation, natural selection, mutations, etc. occur has given us the ability in the field of genetics to greatly decrease health issues and protect from foreign forms of bacteriums which continually speciation and produce immunities to our immune systems ways of detection and attack.
-------------------

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 13 of 29 (9133)
04-30-2002 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by TrueCreation
04-29-2002 8:32 PM


quote:
Originally posted by TrueCreation:
"Did evolution doctrine ever do anything good to cure sickness, or abolish world hunger or anything good at all?"
--I don't think I'm going to take the time to comment on your second segment....however I am not sure about the theory of evolution by common descent throughout Earth history has done so. Though the fact that specation, natural selection, mutations, etc. occur has given us the ability in the field of genetics to greatly decrease health issues and protect from foreign forms of bacteriums which continually speciation and produce immunities to our immune systems ways of detection and attack.

Ummm, TC? Speciation IS common descent - it's how common descent happens. Mutation and natural selection are the two primary mechanisms of evolution. So, are you now accepting ToE? Congratulations! Now if we could just get Joe and Moose to convince you that geology provides a valid age of the Earth, you might be able to apply for membership in the Vast Evilutionist Conspiracy (TM).

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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 14 of 29 (9145)
04-30-2002 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Mister Pamboli
04-29-2002 12:37 AM


I wonder if techristian has really thought the he has much relation to rats. That may have been the ones in NJ or Zaiire but I would guess is in a NATURAL HISTORY mag on animal paintings. I could be wrong. Another contributing factor may however be in the use of object oriented programming that does little to bioloigcal clear the relation of descent and parent-child links when hierarchy or encapulsation is being designed. Of couse for analytic purposes one could maintain as I have elsewhere that a cloud and a cell can not acutally be told apart (any more than a frog and an iguanna). TE-this is a third party comment still.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Mister Pamboli, posted 04-29-2002 12:37 AM Mister Pamboli has not replied

  
techristian
Member (Idle past 4103 days)
Posts: 60
Joined: 04-03-2002


Message 15 of 29 (9150)
04-30-2002 10:48 PM


Percipient
Even if belief in evolution had brought about total moralistic collapse worldwide, it wouldn't make the theory any less true.
And it wouldn't make it any more true either. What a shame that would be!
Dan
http://musicinit.com/etnot/lucy.html

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by gene90, posted 05-01-2002 12:11 AM techristian has replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 16 of 29 (9151)
05-01-2002 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by techristian
04-30-2002 10:48 PM


Because genetic engineering has the possibility of generating biological warfare agents through deliberate misuse and accidental damage to the environment, I conclude that heredity does not exist.
Percipient, should we deny gunpowder or metallurgy next?
[This message has been edited by gene90, 04-30-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by techristian, posted 04-30-2002 10:48 PM techristian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by techristian, posted 05-01-2002 11:40 PM gene90 has replied
 Message 23 by Brad McFall, posted 05-02-2002 11:29 AM gene90 has not replied

  
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