|
Author
|
Topic: A question that was first presented by Socrates.
|
General Nazort
Inactive Member
|
When you said that god is ever unchanging, you are putting your god in a frame. You are limiting him to what's what. You are basically claiming that he has no free will because he is stuck in some kind of good will loop. Whatever - this is for another debate. For now, assuming that God is unchanging, my answer solves the dilemma that Socrates posed.
If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?
|
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
|
Um... not a single of theologian for the last several thousand years or so have been able to adequately solve this dilemma. Are you sure you're not related to the rat? And what kind of answer is "whatever"? Are you calling out to your fellow right wing member? Again, the fact that you are "assuming that god is unchanging" tells the rest of us that you would like your god to be in a certain way. You are telling your god not to be anything else. You are speaking for it. You are limiting it. You are making yourself above it by telling it what it can and can't do.
|
General Nazort
Inactive Member
|
Again, the fact that you are "assuming that god is unchanging" tells the rest of us that you would like your god to be in a certain way. You are telling your god not to be anything else. You are speaking for it. You are limiting it. You are making yourself above it by telling it what it can and can't do. This argument is absurd. The Bible clearly describes God, among other things, as unchanging. Am I putting God in a box when I say that he is omniscient, omnipotent, loving, and just? Am I allowed to describe any attributes of God at all?? Or am I supposed to say that any attempt at all to describe God is speaking for him and limiting him? Assuming that God is unchanging, what is wrong with my solution to the dilemma???
If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?
|
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
|
GN writes: Assuming that God is unchanging, what is wrong with my solution to the dilemma???
Your solution pretty much says that god has no free will. IT is forever trapped in this goodness nature that you are describing.
|
General Nazort
Inactive Member
|
Your solution pretty much says that god has no free will. IT is forever trapped in this goodness nature that you are describing. Is there a problem with a God incapable of doing bad?? I would think that would be a good thing.
If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?
|
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
|
By your definition, if tomorrow god does something that for today is bad, then by your definition it is still good. Here, let me put it in simpler terms for you. If god is unchangeble and it is good, then it has no free will. If god has free will and it is good, then it can change good to whatever the hell it wants.
GN writes: I would think that would be a good thing.
We are not talking about what we would prefer or not. We are talking about god's capability to change what we would percieve as good or not.
|
General Nazort
Inactive Member
|
If god is unchangeble and it is good, then it has no free will. I guess you could say he has free will within the constraints of doing what is good.
We are not talking about what we would prefer or not. We are talking about god's capability to change what we would percieve as good or not. What we percieve as good is based on what God says is good, which does not change...
If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?
|
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
|
|
Message 113 of 314 (147966)
10-07-2004 12:04 AM
|
|
|
This is just a reminder to people that this topic isn't done yet. Since we've wandered into the topic of free will, we've carried the discussion onto this thread. Just a reminder to the admins. Do not close this topic because it is not a synonymous topic with the one I linked to. Socrates' question and free will are 2 different topics!
|
Rrhain
Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
|
General Nazort writes:
quote:
The Bible clearly describes God, among other things, as unchanging.
The Bible also clearly describes god as being inconstant and protean. Which is it? Can god change his mind or not?
Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 117 by dpardo, posted 10-07-2004 12:42 PM | | Rrhain has not replied |
|
ramoss
Member (Idle past 642 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: 08-11-2004
|
It is good because God did it, or does God do it because it is good? Was killing all those people in sodom and Gomorria good? Was the alleged event of the flood good? If so, why was it good? Is insisting on a human sacrifice good?? If so,why? This message has been edited by ramoss, 10-07-2004 09:44 AM
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 118 by dpardo, posted 10-07-2004 1:01 PM | | ramoss has not replied |
|
ramoss
Member (Idle past 642 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: 08-11-2004
|
Are you forgetting the story of abraham?? That story , god tested, but rather than go through with it, provided a Ram for sacrifice. According to the interpretation of this story, it was God's promise NEVER to require a human sacrifice. Remember too, the modern example of David Berkowitz. He though God was talking to him via Sam (his neighbor's dog).
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 122 by tsig, posted 10-09-2004 7:55 PM | | ramoss has not replied |
|
dpardo
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 117 of 314 (148086)
10-07-2004 12:42 PM
|
Reply to: Message 114 by Rrhain
10-07-2004 3:06 AM
|
|
Hi Rrhain, I think we may be talking about two different things here when we say God is unchanging. Are you referring to his character or whether or not he can change his mind? There are a few examples I can think of where God has planned to punish an individual or a group but, "changes his mind", because he/they repent of their sins. Did he change his mind, as we understand the phrase, or did he simply have two (or more) courses of action planned depending on what the individual/group did?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 114 by Rrhain, posted 10-07-2004 3:06 AM | | Rrhain has not replied |
|
dpardo
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 118 of 314 (148092)
10-07-2004 1:01 PM
|
Reply to: Message 115 by ramoss
10-07-2004 10:43 AM
|
|
Hi ramoss,
ramoss writes: "Was killing all those people in sodom and Gomorria good? Was the alleged event of the flood good? If so, why was it good?" From the perspective that God justly punishes the wicked, sometimes severely, it is good. Is justice good?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 115 by ramoss, posted 10-07-2004 10:43 AM | | ramoss has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 119 by Rrhain, posted 10-09-2004 4:43 AM | | dpardo has replied |
|
Rrhain
Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
|
|
|
Message 119 of 314 (148612)
10-09-2004 4:43 AM
|
Reply to: Message 118 by dpardo
10-07-2004 1:01 PM
|
|
dpardo responds to ramoss:
quote:
quote:
Was killing all those people in sodom and Gomorria good? Was the alleged event of the flood good? If so, why was it good?
From the perspective that God justly punishes the wicked, sometimes severely, it is good.
If the flood was good, why did god repent after he did it, admit it was wicked, and make a covenant with Noah promising that he would never, ever do it again? After all, if it were good then there would be no reason to promise not to do it again because it might be necessary. The only reason to promise never to do it again is because you have realized that it is never necessary. Or are you trying to say that the ends justifies the means?
Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 118 by dpardo, posted 10-07-2004 1:01 PM | | dpardo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 120 by dpardo, posted 10-09-2004 12:39 PM | | Rrhain has replied |
|
dpardo
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 120 of 314 (148667)
10-09-2004 12:39 PM
|
Reply to: Message 119 by Rrhain
10-09-2004 4:43 AM
|
|
Hi Rrhain,
Rrhain writes: If the flood was good, why did god repent after he did it, admit it was wicked... Can you please post the verses in Genesis that support this so that we can examine them?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 119 by Rrhain, posted 10-09-2004 4:43 AM | | Rrhain has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 121 by Rrhain, posted 10-09-2004 6:06 PM | | dpardo has replied |
|
™ Version 4.2