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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


(5)
Message 16 of 652 (694040)
03-21-2013 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by kofh2u
03-21-2013 1:07 PM


Re: ...but the restraint on sexual promiscuity is still validated???
How old r u dude? U have a dreadfully dated world view.
A child is raised by a loving community, I am a single father of a wonderful 10 year old boy who is surrounded by people who care for him and cherish him - my relationship
Status or the absence of his mother does nothing to deminish that. A family is so much more than 2.5 kids and a mom and dad, family oughta be as unique and diverse as the people that it creates.
Beside I did emphasis that safe sex should be practiced, I would not encourage anyone to be reckless with their bodies or their hearts, but I would be in favour of being happy and not feeling ashamed of one of the best parts of life.
Ur views on women is appalling by the way, it is so backasswards I'm not
Sure it requires qualification - but women r strong and intelligent and love sex just as
Much as guys, people r just people.

This message is a reply to:
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GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 17 of 652 (694043)
03-21-2013 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
03-21-2013 1:11 PM


Re: Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
If your sure...... I really would rather not, but ur quite a good speaker so I'm curious to hear what u have to say.
I suppose firstly I'd be curious to have the usual atheist crap answered, why do u believe exactly and how can u proove it - but I suppose more specifically I'd question the nessesity of your god, it seems that you have a good basis for a secular stand point, with no fear of eternal damnation etc. I suppose as a system of belief worship relies essentially on an element of fear - without that I dunno, why bother I suppose. Why not leave it at live a good life and be a good person. It seems like your niche have already saved themselves

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 Message 15 by jar, posted 03-21-2013 1:11 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 03-21-2013 4:15 PM GrimSqueaker has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 18 of 652 (694079)
03-21-2013 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by GrimSqueaker
03-21-2013 1:26 PM


Re: Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
Why do I believe the way I do?
Because my belief is the product of my experiences, education, introspection and contemplation.
How can I prove it?
Don't be silly. I can't prove it as long as I am alive and would not even try to do so. I can explain why I think a Christian position as you outlined in the OP is so ridiculous that at best it could be considered a caricature or farce.
You question the necessity of my God? Okay, that's fine. What possible effect could that have on either my beliefs or reality?
As to eternal damnation, like everyone else that's honest in this world I have no clue about what an afterlife might be like, whether there would be eternal torment.
You said "I suppose as a system of belief worship relies essentially on an element of fear - without that I dunno, why bother I suppose."
Why must there be an element of fear? Granted that's a cheap and easy marketing gimmick, IBM became very successful using FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) as their marketing strategy. It really works well for the Christian hucksters selling salvation, but it still smells of dishonesty.
I believe I have a duty to follow the teaching of the path I've chosen and a charge to live my life according to the set of standards built into that path.
I believe I will be judged after I die, judged based on what I personally did with my life. I believe all of us, Jew and Muslim, Atheist and Agnostic, Wiccan and Satanist, Buddhist and Hindu, Animist and Sun worshiper, Taoist and followers of the Norse Gods will be judged, based on our personal behavior and our personal capabilities. And if there is a Heaven, I believe and expect far more Jews and Muslims, Atheists and Agnostics, Wiccans and Satanists, Buddhists and Hindus, Animists and Sun worshipers, Taoists and followers of the Norse Gods will be admitted, welcomed, than Christians.
As to having saved myself? Nonsense. There is no way I can save myself. If I am saved it will only be through the Grace of GOD.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-21-2013 1:26 PM GrimSqueaker has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-22-2013 7:25 AM jar has replied
 Message 265 by Phat, posted 12-31-2013 4:42 PM jar has replied
 Message 293 by Phat, posted 02-17-2014 4:51 AM jar has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 19 of 652 (694088)
03-21-2013 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by subbie
03-21-2013 9:31 AM


Re: ...but the restraint on sexual promiscuity is still validated???
He has no sources.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 20 of 652 (694092)
03-21-2013 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Jazzns
03-21-2013 10:14 AM


...it ought be estroyed then...?
once you include deep time, that it destroys the foundation of their religion.
They need to see that man has been developing and maturing through the seven Ages, eveolving into a creature who can recognize the Truth, which is image of the force behind the ever unfolding Reality that is the master of the living, including man.

This message is a reply to:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 21 of 652 (694093)
03-21-2013 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by subbie
03-21-2013 9:31 AM


Re: ...but the restraint on sexual promiscuity is still validated???
kofh:
Abortions by Religious Affiliation:
Protestants: 37.4%
Catholics: 31.3%
Jews: 1.3 %
Secular: 30.0 %
subbie:
I'd be curious to see your source for those figures, because they look fishy.
...fishy...?
Do you mean embarrassing????
They are published in the World Almanac.
I'll try google and see if there is a lik for you to check out.
PS.
The go=irls checking "Christian" at the abortion clinic obviously really were not.
But their parents clearly are NOT teaching the Christian Truth that would have made it clear that Jesus is NOT love, but the honest truth on things like this in particular.

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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 22 of 652 (694094)
03-21-2013 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Theodoric
03-21-2013 7:18 PM


Re: ...but the restraint on sexual promiscuity is still validated???
He has no sources.
?
Can you give me an example of something I didn't source????
What proportion of U.S. women obtaining abortions are religious?
Answer
More than seven in 10 U.S. women obtaining an abortion report a religious affiliation (37% protestant, 28% Catholic and 7% other), and 25% attend religious services at least once a month.[38] The abortion rate for protestant women is 15 per 1,000 women, while Catholic women have a slightly higher rate, 22 per 1,000.[32]
United States Abortion | Guttmacher Institute

This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 23 of 652 (694095)
03-21-2013 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by GrimSqueaker
03-20-2013 4:29 PM


On original sin
5 - Original Sin and Sins of the Father.
Returning to the opening post, Ayn Rand has the following to say about original sin:
A sin without volition is a slap at morality and an insolent contradiction in terms: that which is outside the possibility of choice is outside the province of morality. If man is evil by birth, he has no will, no power to change it; if he has no will, he can be neither good nor evil; a robot is amoral. To hold, as man’s sin, a fact not open to his choice is a mockery of morality. To hold man’s nature as his sin is a mockery of nature. To punish him for a crime he committed before he was born is a mockery of justice. To hold him guilty in a matter where no innocence exists is a mockery of reason. To destroy morality, nature, justice and reason by means of a single concept is a feat of evil hardly to be matched. Yet that is the root of your code.
Do not hide behind the cowardly evasion that man is born with free will, but with a tendency to evil. A free will saddled with a tendency is like a game with loaded dice. It forces man to struggle through the effort of playing, to bear responsibility and pay for the game, but the decision is weighted in favor of a tendency that he had no power to escape. If the tendency is of his choice, he cannot possess it at birth; if it is not of his choice, his will is not free.
What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call his Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledgehe acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evilhe became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his laborhe became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desirehe acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joyall the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man’s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he wasthat robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without lovehe was not man.
Man’s fall, according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live. These virtues, by their standard, are his Sin. His evil, they charge, is that he’s man. His guilt, they charge, is that he lives.
—Ayn Rand Lexicon
Personally I think the concept of original sin is one of the most evil ideas ever cooked up in the fevered minds of shamans. And I don't doubt that it was designed primarily to increase the control that shamans had over their subjects. I reject that concept completely.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

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Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 03-21-2013 8:40 PM Coyote has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 24 of 652 (694096)
03-21-2013 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Coyote
03-21-2013 8:17 PM


Re: On original sin
I got a sense of the concept of Original Sin sometime during the period when I was becoming a believer, back in the 80s, and far from Coyote's take on it for me it was like a brilliant light went on that illuminated this dark world. I felt that finally I had an explanation for the evils in this world that otherwise have no explanation. To my mind the doctrine is essential and precious for that reason. It takes a chaotic world in which people do horrible things to each other and makes it understandable.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Tangle, posted 03-22-2013 6:25 AM Faith has replied
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 25 of 652 (694098)
03-21-2013 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by kofh2u
03-21-2013 8:01 PM


Re: ...but the restraint on sexual promiscuity is still validated???
deleted reply
not worth it
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 8:01 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 652 (694100)
03-21-2013 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by GrimSqueaker
03-20-2013 4:29 PM


To expect everyone to fall in under a system whether they want to or not, to leave them no option to opt out is tyrannical and down right abusive. If you were born into a community or joined one who's rules you did not agree with you would be able to leave (although it could be difficult, think of the Berlin Wall for example) - Christianity offers no such claus
What exists exists; what more is there?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-20-2013 4:29 PM GrimSqueaker has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-22-2013 7:17 AM Jon has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 27 of 652 (694119)
03-22-2013 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Faith
03-21-2013 8:40 PM


Re: On original sin
Faith writes:
. I felt that finally I had an explanation for the evils in this world that otherwise have no explanation.
You found a myth that explained it in a Grimm's Story way. You didn't find the explanation.
To my mind the doctrine is essential and precious for that reason. It takes a chaotic world in which people do horrible things to each other and makes it understandable.
The problem you have is that you needed an explanation other than the real and obvious one, which is that we're descended from animals that have to fight other animals for their survival. So we have many of those attributes.
We are beginning to find our way out of our upbringing through our intellect and our secular institutions. We no longer have need for mythology to provide the reasons why we are what we are. So we can finally do something about it.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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 Message 24 by Faith, posted 03-21-2013 8:40 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 03-22-2013 9:35 PM Tangle has replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 28 of 652 (694120)
03-22-2013 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Jon
03-21-2013 10:30 PM


I agree that what exists exists - that's kinda a corner stone of any attempt to understand anything, but r u saying it from a theistic point of view or a rationalist one? Clarify?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Jon, posted 03-21-2013 10:30 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Jon, posted 03-23-2013 6:26 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


(1)
Message 29 of 652 (694121)
03-22-2013 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
03-21-2013 4:15 PM


Re: Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
"As to having saved myself? Nonsense. There is no way I can save myself. If I am saved it will only be through the Grace of GOD."
I deeply dislike this position.
I'm not an antitheist due to my own intellectual integrity BUT I would lean very heavily in that direction, as such I am 99.999999% that all the goodness and kindness (which is the vibe I'm getting from u) in you, begins and ends in u - the existance of a higher power would lessens that, and believe in one does yourself a disservice. Whatever you achieve in life you do so by the Grace of Jar and you should be damn proud of that. Any obstical you over come or problem you squash, Grace of Jar again.
To qoute A. Voltaire
"I hate people who blame the devil for their own short comings and I hate when people thank god when things go right"
Humans r capable of astounding things, both the honour and the responsibility for those things lies with the individuals in question - anything else lessens the human experience, and life is too freaking short to lessen the experience

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 03-21-2013 4:15 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 30 of 652 (694124)
03-22-2013 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by GrimSqueaker
03-22-2013 7:25 AM


Re: Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
You are free to "deeply dislike" that position even though your post shows that you are totally clueless about that position.
That position has absolutely nothing to do with what I accomplish or fail to accomplish in this life.
Your quote from Voltaire is also totally irrelevant to that position.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-22-2013 7:25 AM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
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