Did Jesus Exist?

Doesn't Celsus mention the Pantera scenario as well? (was he just quoting Talmud?)What I mean, from a historical research viewpoint, is that if we have one source claiming a miraculous conception, and one claiming a normal conception, a historian must believe the normal conception over the fairytale one.Brian.

yeah. i'm really excited to see how that turns out. maybe the catholics are sitting on things the rest of us don't know about.

This information was originally posted at Message 20 a couple years ago. I include the relevant portions here unchanged: There were non-Biblical mentions of Jesus by three roughly 1st century historians or qualified writers: Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius. For reference purposes I quote the relevant passages here.This one from Josephus's Antiquities of the Jews 18:63-64, possibly written around the 80's AD, is widely believed to be a later Christian insertion: There is less agreement about this passing reference to Jesus in Antiquities 20:9.1. It seems impossible to establish its authenticity: Tacitus writing around 100 AD mentions Christians in Annals 15.44, but it is believed by some to be a later Christian insertion, and even if genuine he is clearly merely repeating what he has heard: Suetonius around 120 AD mentions a "Chrestus" in his The Lives of the Caesars 5.25.4, and while perhaps confirming the existence of Jews who followed Christ it provides no evidence of Jesus, and in fact errs in describing him as instigating disturbances long after he supposedly died: --Percy

For me the question of Jesus' existence comes down to how much Paul made up. Paul may or may not have based his teachings upon a real person, but we will likely never know for sure.The writings of Paul are the oldest we have about Jesus, obviously predating the Gospels by a good bit. It is instructive that Paul mentions almost none of the biographical information contained in the Gospels. I believe he includes that Jesus was crucified at one point, and at another that he rose on the third day. I believe he also mentions the 12 apostles in one or two places. But of Joseph, Mary, Herod, John the Baptist's baptism of Jesus, the Roman census, the last supper, the beloved apostle, the tomb, the rock before the tomb, and a host of other details, Paul says nothing.This leads to the suspicion that the Gospel accounts are fabrications based upon older oral traditions and writings that haven't survived and that were more sketchy but not, for the most part, based upon fact. Certainly there are events in the Gospels that would not have escaped the notice of historians like Josephus had they actually taken place.--Percy

A ficional character leaving a valid message for humankind, what is the message?

It is easy to fool some of the people all of the time? But, seriously, taking for granted that there was a real Jesus, if we consider all the unlikely and the impossible events attached to him, isn't it just plausible that Jesus may have been an sort of Arthurian legend. A real person who didn't do a fraction of what was attributed to him, and only a fraction of what was said to have happened to him is true?Personally, I find the entire episode of His arrest, trial and execution completley impossible.Brian.

How many people does it take take to witness a resurrection?

It would only take one to witness it.Brian.

The message is to love others as you love yourself. If everyone just trys to do what's right, treats others the way they would like to be treated, then this world will be a better place.It really is as simple as that.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

God is internally "perceived" as a concept and a reality by many people the world over, and in many different ways. Jseus Christ, however, is only real to those whom the Father has chosen to make real.

NIV writes:

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Matt 16:13-20-- When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?" They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets." "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

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Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

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There is controversy to be sure, but I personally am no more liable to take the word of a group of "esteemed secular authorities" any more than they will take the word as it is wriitten! To be quite frank, I believe that because Jesus is real, there is a type of a "spiritual" battle in society that seeks to discredit His existance!

Brennakimi writes:

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the only available testimony is in so called 'holy books'. these have no reliability outside their own word. we can't trust that as historically accurate until there is outside proof.

Outside of what? While it is often good and healthy to examine organized religion by consulting "experts" outside its ranks, you will not find definite theological answeres from these so-called experts not only because they have no agenda (as many claim) but because they are incapable of seeing the forest apart from the trees in regards to divine impartation---they simply won't take that necessary first step and believe!

Jar writes:

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There is almost no verifiable evidence that Jesus existed outside the record in the Bible and extrabiblical scripture. Personally, I believe Jesus existed, but even if he is only a fictional character, the message is still a valid one.

Thats like saying that if your money in the bank is fictional money, you still have $100,000.00! As you yourself may say, if the money has value, than it has value regardless of if we can see it or not..if it has no value, it has no value even if we could see it!

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If Jesus is who He said He is, no amount of atheist skeptics will ever discredit the reality of Gods character....but IF Jesus is not who He said He is, no amount of internal credibility from any individual will ever be able to "invent" a God.

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I agree only in that it is a matter of faith and belief.

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The facts are not conclusive either way.

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This message has been edited by Phat, 01-05-2006 09:59 AM

Exactly, but only one side is making a positve claim.Granted there really isn't evidence either way.... but there is also no evidence that King Arthur existed or the Loch Ness Monster........

i don't care about theological answers or divine impartation. i care about clear, historical proof for a man there are only tall tales about. yes there was really a molly pitcher. did she really water every colonial soldier? prolly not. yes there really was a john chapman. did he actually plant an apple tree in every county in the nation all the way to the pacific? no. was there really a jesus? if so, give me some proof besides these tall tales. and unless you have something new, there isn't any. i don't want to hear how much you really believe or how much you really want it to be true. i want it to be true, too. but i really don't think it is and i really know it can't be proven based on what is available. if you gave 6 billion people heroin, they'd all have visions too.

There are plenty of eye-witness accounts of the Loch Ness Monster; here is a list of roughly fifty of them.Eye-witness accounts are a very poor form of evidence, but nevertheless it seems to me there is much more evidence for the Loch Ness Monster than there is for Jesus; especially considering that many of the accounts of Jesus are second-hand.

Well, yes, in the eyes of many christians that is true.That is because Christianity is baseing itself on being exclusive and historical. Islam has the same weakness.That might be why so many christains seem to be willing to lie, and also lie to themselves about the historical evidence. That is probably the motivation for trying to find ways to mesh togather stories that contradict each other.

Touche pink_sasquatch... good point; you got me there!Cheers,DA BEARS